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India Launches Indigenous Cryogenic Rocket

samzenpus posted about 4 months ago | from the to-the-stars-and-beyond dept.

Space 126

An anonymous reader writes "The Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) today successfully launched its heavy-duty rocket — the Geo Synchronous Satellite Launch vehicle (GSLV). The communication satellite, GSAT-14 was launched from Isro's spaceport at Sriharikota, about 80 km from Chennai. ISRO had to develop the cryogenic technology from scratch after the United States prevented Russia from transferring the technology to the India in 1993. Today's successful launch marks the culmination of a 20 year effort to develop the engine."

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126 comments

WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870395)

The only reason we would care about it being cryogenic is that certain fuels and oxiders are not liquid at room temperature.

Re: WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870421)

Liquid Hydrogen

Re:WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (1, Funny)

KingOfBLASH (620432) | about 4 months ago | (#45870447)

Curry Tindaloo. I know that makes me blast off when I go to the toilet.

Re:WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870603)

Here's a drum solo for the funny guy: *padam pam tshhh*

Re: WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871161)

flamebait? get a sense of humor u twat, that was hilarious

Re: WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (1)

KingOfBLASH (620432) | about 4 months ago | (#45871411)

It's OK AC. Knowing you are 80% of the posters on slashdot, I now know 80% of slashdot loves and adores me

Re:WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (4, Informative)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 4 months ago | (#45870461)

A little googling says it uses solid fuel boosters, plus a non-cryogenic second stage powered by a Vikas engine running off dinitrogen tetroxide as an oxidiser for an unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine fuel. The cryogenic part though is the third stage powered by a new engine, the CE-7.5, which runs off good old liquid hydrogen and oxygen. About as simple a fuel as you can get, chemically. They are already working on the CE-20, which packs a much higher thrust albeit at a slightly lower specific impulse.

Or, in internet terms: It's powered by the Rockomac Skipper, but they're saving up science points for the Mainsail.

Re:WHAT WAS THE FUEL? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871329)

Skipper? It's clearly a LV-909 and they're working on the LV-T45.

Great for India (2)

AHuxley (892839) | about 4 months ago | (#45870409)

The insight and expert leadership http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Space_Research_Organisation#Goals_and_objectives [wikipedia.org] really seems to have worked out very well long term.
From early testing to advancing skills within India seems to have been the key. So many other nations try to buy in, but end up with expensive, limited export grade tech transfers.

Re:Great for India (5, Insightful)

Dunbal (464142) | about 4 months ago | (#45870509)

Yeah so you could say that in a way, the US is slicing its own throat yet again by trying to bully other countries and deny them "access" to technology when they don't do as they are told. It's pretty arrogant to assume that said countries can never come up with technological advances on their own. But hey - thanks America! You're right, we DON'T need you anymore!

Re:Great for India (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871519)

Uh. It's not assuming that said countries can't.

It's assuming they will take a lot longer to do so and by the time it's hopefully no longer your problem but your successor's problem ;).

Re:Great for India (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45875921)

your successor's problem

I think this is really big part of the actual problem.

Re:Great for India (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871637)

Ok cool. Now go home.

Re:Great for India (1)

BringsApples (3418089) | about 4 months ago | (#45872007)

Exactly correct sir. And also, now that India has it's own sense of not only stability, but also accomplishment, we can expect their rates to go up for services rendered. I mean, at what point do we stop calling India a 3rd-world?

Re:Great for India (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45873291)

I mean, at what point do we stop calling India a 3rd-world?

Actually, at what point does everyone start using the term correctly? Since India was not an ally of the the US during the Cold War, it was categorized as "3rd World", meaning "non-aligned with either the Western or Soviet Bloc". I consider the term obsolete since the Cold War is over; it's more accurate to categorize India as "former 3rd World" maybe.

Re:Great for India (2)

BringsApples (3418089) | about 4 months ago | (#45873377)

Right, but everyone associates "3rd-world" with not achieving a certain level of health, education, and developmental abilities. What would be the correct terminology to use in place of what we're all calling "3rd-world"?

developing nation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45876167)

There was this concept of developing nations and developed nations that they teach in the third world s that they dont refer to themselves as 3rd world

Re:Great for India (1)

Immerman (2627577) | about 4 months ago | (#45872163)

Think of it in strategy game terms: India and China are both destined to become major competitors of the US - we can't ethically stop them, but we don't have to help them either. Any slight delay is a long-term advantage, if only in allowing us to capture a little more territory before firm borders are established - physical or otherwise. In this case any research points they spend recreating our efforts are points they don't spend on developing technologies that may come to surpass ours.

Maybe not the greatest plan in terms of what's best for humanity as a whole, but that's geopolitics for you.

At this point we've divvied up the Earth pretty well - making space the next great land-rush. The moon especially will be extremely valuable real estate - fuel mining/refining initially, but mines beget mining towns, and the moon is expected to be just as resource-rich as the Earth, with no pesky environmental concerns. Current treaties aside there will be competition to control the choicest regions. Similarly, in space Lagrange points will always have special properties, and if someone can establish a credible claim to them now, while their value is limited...

Re:Great for India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45872419)

Yeah so you could say that in a way, the US is slicing its own throat yet again by trying to bully other countries and deny them "access" to technology when they don't do as they are told.

In case no one told you, rocket technology is the same sort of thing used to construct ICBMs.

The US, Russia, and many peaceniks don't want ICBM technology proliferating.

Re: Great for India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45872855)

In case no-one told you, cryogenic fuels are freaking uzeless for ICBMs when you already have solid rockets.

Re:Great for India (1)

cyn1c77 (928549) | about 4 months ago | (#45872969)

Yeah so you could say that in a way, the US is slicing its own throat yet again by trying to bully other countries and deny them "access" to technology when they don't do as they are told. It's pretty arrogant to assume that said countries can never come up with technological advances on their own. But hey - thanks America! You're right, we DON'T need you anymore!

Uh, how is the "US slicing its own throat" by not helping India?

The Indians are obviously smart enough to figure it out themselves, why would they need assistance? It's better for national pride if they do it on their own and they might actually develop some new tech instead of copying old designs.

Personally, I say more power to them. It's not the US and Russia's job to develop all of the world's space tech and then sell it to everyone else. And I respect them a hell of a lot more than other countries who just steal the designs and blatantly copy them.

Re:Great for India (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 4 months ago | (#45875715)

India had the tech at a ready to build stage in this own labs by 1990 but seeing as they had the tech untested, they thought why not buy in a tested, launch ready system from Russia at the same time.
They could then build their own over time while still getting a tested, known system from Russia.

Re:Great for India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45875493)

Somebody need to teach India about black body radiation.
Why is the cryo stage black in color?
Most advanced nations paint their cryo stages white to reduce heat absorption.

The US played a huge part in delaying India (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870411)

The United States prevented Russia from transferring cryogenic engine technology to India, so India had to develop this from scratch. And then there is the famous ISRO spy scandal which the CIA is believed to have orchestrated. The CIA is believed to have got top scientists working on the Indian cryogenic engine implicated in a scandal, thus slowing down the program. The supreme court of India recently exonerated the accused scientists of any wrongdoing.

Please read these:

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/who-killed-the-isros-cryogenic-engine/20131118.htm
http://indrus.in/blogs/2013/11/09/cryogenic_countdown_how_the_gslv_became_indias_missile_impossible_30711.html

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (5, Funny)

bigfinger76 (2923613) | about 4 months ago | (#45870469)

I can't believe the U.S. would do such a thing to the India.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870877)

Why not? It's a perfectly sensible thing to do, why worry about yet another country being capable of launching nukes halfway around the globe?

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (2)

Chrisq (894406) | about 4 months ago | (#45872377)

Why not? It's a perfectly sensible thing to do, why worry about yet another country being capable of launching nukes halfway around the globe?

India are on our side - its Pakistan and Iran you have to worry about.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (2)

AHuxley (892839) | about 4 months ago | (#45875725)

Its the wrong tech AC, India already had all the "launching nukes" options ready by mid to late 1980's.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (3, Informative)

PPH (736903) | about 4 months ago | (#45871097)

I can. As others have pointed out, cryogenic engines are of little military use. ICBMs use solid fuel to be able to launch on moments notice. So blocking this technology (meanwhile India went on to develop solid fuel missiles) was probably intended to protect the US commercial satellite business.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (2)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45871221)

LOL. Until SpaceX, US has been out of the Commercial sat business for over a decade. Europe and Russia nuked us on that.
SpaceX will bring all future launches to US, BUT, for the last 15 years, it has been nothing.

IOW, no, that had no impact on our policy.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871741)

SpaceX will bring all future launches to US, BUT, for the last 15 years, it has been nothing.

Nope. ITAR will keep a large percentage out of the US. It, not cost, is the reason you never got many launches before SpaceX to begin with.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45875179)

ITAR effects IP transfer. It has zero impact on commercial sats, other than it limits them to US, Europe and Russia. Basically, the only nation cut out is China (well, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, etc).

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45875559)

You obviously don't understand what information transfer means. A US company can't tell its customers anything about their own project without jumping through many ludicrous loops. Non-US aerospace companies openly advertise their services as "ITAR-free", with good reason.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45875753)

poppycock.
You obviously do not have a clue about ITAR or the implications, but just mouth BS that others have wildly claimed.
Non-American aerospace companies wanted the ability to launch on Chinese launchers. However, they were not allowed to use American know-how to do so. That is what lead the french to create a new company that is devoted to that. Good luck to them now that SpaceX is going to be a fraction of the costs of Chinese launchers. And if China decides to subsidize, then hopefully, SpaceX will scream quickly about it.

But to claim that ITAR will block companies from building sats is a joke.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (2)

PPH (736903) | about 4 months ago | (#45871755)

US has been out of the Commercial sat business for over a decade.

But not for a lack of trying. That's the American way: Fuck with the competition instead of building a better product yourself.

Re: The US played a huge part in delaying India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45872499)

The Wartsila mini-submarines were essentially brought down similarly. The Finnish company designed two mini-subs (used by e.g. Cameron in his deep sea dive) which are STILL state of the art. Then Wartsila had to shut down the entire dawning industry because of US pressure.

ZOMFG commies with minisubs going deeper than we ever could!!!1

Instead of supporting the newly-forming industry and letting both US and their ally win and the Soviet Union lose the US chose, sadly, to force their ally to stop all development, destroy the plans, forms, and so on.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45874913)

Really? How did we try to fuck over the competition?

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

PPH (736903) | about 4 months ago | (#45875459)

From the summary:

United States prevented Russia from transferring the technology to the India in 1993.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45875783)

India was NOT competition. We did not want some of OUR technology that Russia had to go to India. It would be like US giving information about RD-180 to your nation. Yes, part of Russia's tech for hydrolox comes from USA, not from themselves.

So, lets try again.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

erice (13380) | about 4 months ago | (#45872025)

I can. As others have pointed out, cryogenic engines are of little military use. ICBMs use solid fuel to be able to launch on moments notice. So blocking this technology (meanwhile India went on to develop solid fuel missiles) was probably intended to protect the US commercial satellite business.

The first ICBM's used cryogenic fuels. Atlas [wikipedia.org] was vulnerable to a first strike but not considered useless. It took some time to create storable liquid fuels [wikipedia.org] and solids with intercontinental range [wikipedia.org] . No doubt these technologies were blocked too.

If starting from zero, cryogenic liquid fuel is the quickest way to deliver nukes half way around the world. It requires less development than storable fuels. They are easier to control and to scale up than solid fuels. That means better accuracy and you don't need to be as accurate because you can put a bigger bomb on there.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 4 months ago | (#45871621)

They are not the first 'Indians' they screwed.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (2)

rts008 (812749) | about 4 months ago | (#45872381)

Uhmmm...yes they are.

While I get your point (and agree), the specifics need addressing.
In other words, you got it backwards, or less than optimum word choice.

Why did we call Native Americans 'Indians'?
Because their skin color was similar to the Indians(from India).

We (Westerners) learned to screw American Indians by screwing the Indian Indians first.
("Yo, dawg! I heard you like Indians, so...")

"It would not be the firs time Indians got screwed." (This would fix the word choice issue.)

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45872803)

Well the theory is that when Columbus landed he thought that he had reached India, so he called the natives Indians.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 4 months ago | (#45873971)


Why did we call Native Americans 'Indians'?
Because their skin color was similar to the Indians(from India).

I rather believe it comes from the fact that early discoverers assumed they had found India (the western way/passage to India).

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871773)

It is my understanding that the AC submitter is the India himself!

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870529)

The United States prevented Russia...

I am very skeptical of that and of the links you have posted.

Since when does Russia give a shit what the US tells them to do?

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870575)

This was just after the Soviet Union broke up. Russia was economically vulnerable back then. Yeltsin was their president. They backed off under pressure from the US, specifically under threats of economic consequence.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 4 months ago | (#45870651)

In the early 1990's the tech trade would have been considered as Russia needed loans, US/Russian space funding and the US would have hinted at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Technology_Control_Regime [wikipedia.org]
India already had Agni, Prithvi missile systems making the Missile Technology Control Regime aspect a strange reason to block the deal with Russia.
Basically lucrative US satellite launches would have faced price cuts with India entering the market with Russia help.
India lost some time via the Russian block, but already had the cryogenic tech and skills ready by 1990.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (5, Informative)

ColaBlizzard (2870167) | about 4 months ago | (#45870953)

The United States prevented Russia...

I am very skeptical of that and of the links you have posted.

Since when does Russia give a shit what the US tells them to do?

This link will clarify your doubt. This is a very respectable Indian magazines (India Today) 1993 article: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/us-blocks-critical-cryogenic-deal-forces-india-to-indigenise/1/302683.html [intoday.in] Quote from article:

Russia caved in only because President Boris Yeltsin is desperate for Western aid to bail out his nation from the economic mess it is in. And the US had also threatened that it would stop all future space contracts with Russia including joint launches. So Yeltsin, who had pledged to uphold the deal when he visited India in January, instructed his negotiators to yield. Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/us-blocks-critical-cryogenic-deal-forces-india-to-indigenise/1/302683.html [intoday.in]

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45871281)

no, the US did in fact block Russia from helping India on this. Two reasons why Russia complied:
1) part of Russia's hydrolox engines come from USA, IOW, we had some legal tie-ups on it; think of USA giving up the tech for RD-180.
2) US was supporting Russia esp. their space program.

Re:The US played a huge part in delaying India (1)

citizenr (871508) | about 4 months ago | (#45872817)

Speaking of conspiracy theories, whats up with Indian Nuclear scientists? I read somewhere a lot of them died or went missing in mysterious circumstances in recent years.

Congrats India (2)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45870481)

That is really cool (no pun intended). Developing, or even re-developing, advanced technology will always help your nation. And this rocket is about a LH2/LOX engine, which does not help the military. So, this is about a civil process, which is of more use.

Re:Congrats India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870619)

It's so funny how you said 'cool' and emphasized it with 'no pun intended'. Plenty of lulz given.

Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (5, Informative)

tlambert (566799) | about 4 months ago | (#45870519)

Why the US prevented the technology transfer:

India developed nuclear capability after the 1970 nuclear non-proliferation treaty which created the so-called "Nuclear Club". India is still not a signatory to this treaty, along with Israel, Pakistan, South Sudan, and (now that they've withdrawn from it) North Korea.

The intent was to prevent them from, or at least slow progress on, developing an ICBM delivery system for nuclear warheads, without them becoming signatory to the treaty. They could have had the technology for the asking, if the became a signatory.

For this same reason, it's unlikely that there would be a similar transfer to any non-signatory state, and probably not Taiwan, which claims they are abiding to the treaty, but have so far refused to become signatory to it.

It's pretty hypocritical to complain about the blocking of a technology transfer of this particular technology under the circumstances, given that India tested it's Agni V ICBM last September, and can hit targets in pretty much all of Europe, Asia, and Austrailia, and much of Africa.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870539)

Cryogenic engines use liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen. It take a long time to get a missile with a cryo engine ready and primed for launch. For this reason, cryo engines are not used in ICBMs.

The real reason for the US preventing the tech transfer was that they did not want competition in the satellite launch business.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870569)

They have it anyways with SpaceX.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45871355)

we were already out of the commercial sat launch business 10 years ago. Europe and Russia has owned it for the last 10 years. Heck, we started to launch with China in late 90's, since the US industry was so decimated.
So, no. this had NOTHING to do with the sat launch.

Besides, USA is about to get 100% of the free-choice market. The reason is that SpaceX will cost below 1/10 or more of the costs of any other system.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870563)

Indian here. I am glad that the transfer never happened. May this continue. Nobody is complaining.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45871365)

exactly. This helped India. Basically, by developing it, you have had mishaps, BUT, you know what works and what does not. More importantly, you have a whole new industry. This gives India a chance to compete against China.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870667)

Who'd seriously use cryogenics for missiles ?

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45871335)

false. We stopped the hydrolox transfer. That is of NO USE to an ICBM system. Instead, you need solid fuels for that, which India has. And the blocking of the tech stopped some 10 years ago.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (2)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | about 4 months ago | (#45872005)

false. We stopped the hydrolox transfer. That is of NO USE to an ICBM system.

False. H2/O2 engines on an ICBM make the ICBM useless for defensive purposes (you can't do a quick launch in response to an attack).

They CAN be used for a first strike just fine - not like you're on a timetable when YOU are the one initiating the action.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45874907)

true, but then the enemy can spot you fueling them and attack.
IOW, hydrolox has NO use to a military ICBM. THis is more true because India DOES have the solid fuel motors. Easy enough to build true ICBMs with those and the enemy will never know until the launch.

Re:Why the US prevented the technology transfer: (1)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | about 4 months ago | (#45871647)

I guess you mix up "South Sudan" with South Africa.
South Sudan is still close to the stone age.

Bravo, India! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870533)

Maybe now you can devote some effort to provide electricity, running water and toilets to the hundred of millions of Indians who lack such basic services.

Re: Bravo, India! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870717)

Nah just wait for America to export all its jobs to India

Re: Bravo, India! (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45871375)

that is only because India is so heavily manipulating their money. That is why they are suffering 10% inflation.

Re: Bravo, India! (1)

cusco (717999) | about 4 months ago | (#45875495)

Ten percent inflation is nothing. For much of the world that would be almost unprecedented stability.

Re: Bravo, India! (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45875799)

Economists say otherwise. [wsj.com]
More here. [businessinsider.com]

In a nutshell, India is dropping their ruppe to the dollars to scam some jobs from the west, BUT, not enough is flowing there anymore. Now, they are allowing CHinese goods to flow in there, who is manipulating their money relative to India, and making theirs dirt cheap.
Unless India changes SOON, they will see rising inflation, combined with lose of work. For 3rd world nations, that typically leads to a different situation: civil war.

huh? (2, Funny)

Connie_Lingus (317691) | about 4 months ago | (#45870577)

" ...after the United States prevented Russia from transferring the technology to the India in 1993."

yeah, right.

how exactly does that work when the united states could even prevent one of its own citizens from transferring highly classified state spy secrets to a british newspaper?

Re:huh? (1)

Connie_Lingus (317691) | about 4 months ago | (#45870581)

yes i know...typo..that's couldnt not could...

no morning coffee yet...sigh...it sucks not having a 60 second edit window here on slashdot...

Re:huh? (1)

danlock4 (1026420) | about 4 months ago | (#45871673)

it sucks not having a 60 second edit window here on slashdot...

Maybe so, but that's why /. mandates "Preview" before "Submit". :-)

Re:huh? (2)

dryeo (100693) | about 4 months ago | (#45872105)

Middle click on Reply to This and get a different form of posting which includes being able to post without preview.
May vary depending on karma

Re:huh? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870657)

" ...after the United States prevented Russia from transferring the technology to the India in 1993."

yeah, right.

how exactly does that work when the united states could even prevent one of its own citizens from transferring highly classified state spy secrets to a british newspaper?

Harken back to 1993 when Soviet Union had just disintegrated and Russians were queueing up in winter snow with loads of rubles in their hands to buy a loaf of bread. That's when the United States could easily arm-twist them over something that wasn't a priority to Russians. There was no Putin then to rebuff the US, they hadn't struck much oil then- it was a very different, impoverished, bruised and politically volatile Russia in 1993.

Re:huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870755)

See, how much power the USA lost in just 20 years?

Re:huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871125)

Not to mention the fact that U. S. corporations and Universites practically transferred the entire U. S. manufacturing and tech economy to India and China... And they call Snowden a traitor... Go figure.

Re:huh? (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about 4 months ago | (#45871383)

ouch. That is an interesting thought. I had not considered that one. And the fact is, that you bring up one heck of a good point.

Re:huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45876093)

Not to mention the fact that U. S. corporations and Universites practically transferred the entire U. S. manufacturing and tech economy to India and China... And they call Snowden a traitor... Go figure.

Corporations, yes, Universities, no. We all know American corporate execs would sell their Grandma for a good quarter, but what have American universities done to undermine American tech and manufacturing? There is nothing 'exclusively American' in what they teach, and they make a tonne of good money from foreign students, and contrary to your statement, don't transfer any tech out of the USA. Students from developing world throng to US Universities because they are actually way better than the Universities in their own countries, and they sacrifice a lot to get quality education. To suggest that international students, or American Universities have somehow led to transfer of manufacturing or technology outside the USA is juvenile. The whole of the blame for such transfers lies with the corporates and their greedy execs.

Re:huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45872091)

Yeltsin was much weaker and corrupt than the nerd you refer to. Were it basically any other Soviet or Russian President they'd probably tell the US to go fuck itself.

29 hour countdown (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870679)

104400, 104399, 104398, ...

If you make a mistake, do you need to start again?

But what about the 20 years?! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870761)

The most bizarre part of this saga is that despite hundreds of thousands of students graduating from US (and all other 1st world) Universities AND having half a dozen of the actual Russian cryogenic engines in their possession to reverse engineer, it STILL took them an entire generation?! Seriously the room full of monkey's banging out the complete works of Shakespeare is the only analogy that comes to my mind.

Re: But what about the 20 years?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45870985)

comment valid. accepted.
we tried but failed few times. Our funds are limited. but 20 years is too long. This will shrink in future.

Most of our educated ppl took job in first world countries. Patriotism in elite ppl were little less. Future will be different.

so....they did the needful. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45871031)

The article reads like your average Infosys process document.

Congratulations (0)

amightywind (691887) | about 4 months ago | (#45871051)

I congratulate India for stealing that "indigenous" US design.

Re:Congratulations (2)

FlyingGuy (989135) | about 4 months ago | (#45872259)

What do you mean "stealing"? The plans for cryogenic engines have been all over the internet for a long time now. The basic technology of the original F1 engine from the Apollo program was pretty common knowledge over 10 years ago. You really can't steal a design that has been pretty much open to the public at large. The innovations of the F1 engine were the cooling of the nozzle with the cryogenic fuel and the turbo-pumps, both of which have been pretty well understood for a long time.

Admittedly, scaling them might pose a technical challenge but I don't think it would that hard. The hard stuff was dealing with the shock wave problems that wanted to tear everything apart and even solutions to those problems have been in open scientific journals for a long long time.

A Reflection (5, Insightful)

kgskgs (938843) | about 4 months ago | (#45871575)

Indian here. I was in India when the newspapers were brimming with the news of how USA denied the technology to India. Ironically the desire in India grew exponentially when the technology was denied. Suddenly everyone from politicians, scientists, engineers, and even the street food vendors and Bollywood actors were interested in India developing cryogenic engine technology. Many of them couldn't pronounce cryogenic correctly. 99.99% of them didn't have a clue what it really was or what would it mean to their life if India were to develop cryogenic engines.

This psychological effect is extremely powerful. An Iranian friend told me once "I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons in general. But if USA and Israel do not want Iran to have nuclear weapons, then I want Iran to have nuclear weapons." It's all about sticking it to the big bully, proving yourself. Suddenly it gives a point to the people to rally around.

And the resentment it causes when people realize that someone else is controlling them is so powerful and pervasive that I think it needs consideration in foreign policy design.

I am not saying go on handing over technologies to nations. But Americans vastly underestimate this type of resentment. The future potential cost of such resentment should be adequately considered while deciding what is in the best interest of USA. If you really have to do it, then at least launch adequate PR effort.

Re:A Reflection (1)

MickLinux (579158) | about 4 months ago | (#45874185)

1) Congratulations on the development. 2) I, too, was amused by the indigenous term, not only because I have seen -- for example -- that indigenous aboriginals can sometimes be superior technicians, but also because of the similarity of 'india' vs. 'indigenous', which implies to me it would create a colonial india out in space.

My, wouldn't I like to see a colonial anything out in space: USA, Russia, China, India, Azerbaijan, whatever.

Essentually India has an ICBM (1)

bobwalt (2500092) | about 4 months ago | (#45872047)

I would imagine that this rocket can now reach anywhere in the world with a fairly heavy payload. This far exceeds the range of their current missiles.

Re:Essentually India has an ICBM (1)

cusco (717999) | about 4 months ago | (#45875569)

Why the eternal stupidity we see parroted every time that some country makes or attempts a technological advance? "ZOMG IT'S A WEAPON!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!" The amazing cowardice of the general public never fails to disgust me.

What is a cryogenic rocket? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#45872921)

It's frustrating that the article doesn't attempt even a brief explanation of what cryogenic rocket technology means. I'm more familiar with the term "cryogenics" as applied to freezing bodies after death, with the hopes of future revival. It's not immediately clear to me how extreme cold is useful in rocketry.

And the US got its rocket technology from...... (1)

kill_-9 (118908) | about 4 months ago | (#45874271)

.....technology transfer from the Germans...von Braun........after WWII...

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