Predictors of Suicidal Behavior Found In Blood 209
ananyo writes "Researchers may have found a way to potentially predict suicidal behaviour by analyzing someone's blood. Using blood samples taken by the coroner from nine men who had committed suicide, they found six molecular signs, or biomarkers, that they say can identify people at risk of committing suicide. To check whether these biomarkers could predict hospitalizations related to suicide or suicide attempts, the researchers analysed gene-expression data from 42 men with bipolar disorder and 46 men with schizophrenia. When the biomarkers were combined with clinical measures of mood and mental state, the accuracy with which researchers could predict hospitalizations was more than 80% (abstract)."
STAY OFF MY LAWN (Score:5, Funny)
I don't want to live in a world that will prevent me from committing suicide.
I disagree (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I disagree (Score:5, Funny)
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Coffee. Splat. Monitor.
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Who vs. whom, what are you, British? While you're at it, why not complain using "you" instead of having the separate subject and object forms, thou and thee. Sorry, but subject/object forms in English have been dying for around 1000 years. It ain't German anymore. It's become an analytic rather than a synthetic language.
P.S. Couldn't help myself. Nothing more fun than outdoing the pedantry of someone else.
P.P.S. Next time let's discuss the singular "they", and how it was absurd to try and impose Latin rules
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Can someone explain to me why "try and" seems to have become so popular? It makes no logical sense as a replacement for "try to", and appears to be favored over the latter for purely euphonic reasons.
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Idioms don't have to make sense when taken literally.
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Idioms don't have to make sense when taken literally.
Actually, try this. And see what you think:
There's "try and". Which, as you can see, is a perfectly sensible construct.
And there's "try to". Which is also sensible, but has an obviously different meaning.
And finally, there's the idiomatic "try and". Which doesn't make literal sense, because it's actually just being sloppy with the above. But that's idioms for you.
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OK, since this is the pedantic thread, they can make sense, but have to mean something different than the literal meaning.
Nope. See definitions 1 and 3: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idiom [merriam-webster.com]
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Can someone explain to me why "try and" seems to have become so popular? It makes no logical sense as a replacement for "try to", and appears to be favored over the latter for purely euphonic reasons.
OTOH, if your logic tree isn't getting the results you expected, delete an OR and....
try AND
. //rimshot
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Can someone explain to me why "try and" seems to have become so popular? It makes no logical sense as a replacement for "try to", and appears to be favored over the latter for purely euphonic reasons.
Euphonic reasons sound good enough.
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In other words, English is a crap language
What language isn't crap? (let's leave the spelling thing out of this though - there is no excuse for English there).
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I was referring to a real language like 'merican English, not that foreign gibberish you're spouting. I may be a pedant, but I'm an American pedant.
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Easy: Never use whom.
Re:I disagree (Score:5, Funny)
To whom are you addressing that remark?
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He/him is a good starting point. Replace who/whom with he/him. If he makes more sense you who if him makes more sense use whom.
Simple.
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Well, perhaps electroshock therapy isn't totally obsolete...
As funny as that is, I have a family member who was treated with EST [wikipedia.org] last year (2012). I was flabbergasted at the time, but evidently it is still used in some cases. The same family member was also treated with Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation [wikipedia.org] this year (2013). This was also surprising to me, as I was under the assumption that magnetic therapies were homeopathic.
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The Magnetic Therapies used as actual treatments are extremely powerful, and specifically target devices.
However, the data is still weak, and Neuropsychopharmacology did a great break down on the FDA post hoc reasoning.
The shit you where on your wrist or in your shoe have no effect.
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That said, I agree with GP. The government should have no say in whether or not I can end my life, be it euthanasia or depressi
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Suicide isn't illegal. Attempted suicide is.
You can't arrest a dead person
The government absolutely should. I used to believe like you, but then I started reading up on suicide. Turns out, most of them are decided on out of the blue.
I would argue you were mentally unstable.
Of course, it gets sticier beyond that. DO you have the right to leave young children behind? but a large burden on other people? litter the streets?
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more evidence: suicide survivor Ken Baldwin - 'I instantly realized that everything in my life that I'd thought was unfixable was totally fixable.....except for having just jumped.'
Achieving perspective as to what is really (un)important in life helps (tip: most things are relatively very unimportant). Unfortunately, it often only comes at these point-of-no-return moments, like the moment my wife died in my arms at exactly 3 PM, Friday, January 13, 2006. Make the most of what you learn. If possible, sit down, think ahead and figure it out before it's too late. Just my $.02.
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You wouldn't say that if you understood English. From our good friends, Mssrs. Merriam & Webster:
Suicidal: marked by an impulse to commit suicide.
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Guns are actually incredibly simply to operate. And a simple single shot 12 gauge shotgun with a short barrel will only set you back maybe $150. Pop in shell, close barrel, pull hammer, squeeze trigger.... *BLAM*
And why are calling women stupid? My wife is actually a damn good shot. And quite mechanically inclined.
And not all suicidal people that haven't brought themselves to do it yet are "putting on a show". A lot of them genuinely want to die but are afraid of the pain involved in death and it takes
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no.
Most people who commit suicide do it fairly suddenly.
Also, the higher the bar, the fewer suicide. And the bar doesn't need to be moved that high.
This could be a great breakthrough. If you can tell ahead of time you are the statistically likely to decide to kill your self one day, you can take preventative measure.
Is the chemical a temporarily generate chemical? Does it change?
Read up on people who where saved from suicide, or survived the attempt. A shocking number of them decide out of the blue.
IT's eas
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You have to realize that suicidal for woman is more of a call for help. Women tend to use methods that permit escape or discovery before death. Suicidal for men is more time to go, where's my gun?
Statistically woman attempt suicide more often than men. But men die at a much higher rate.
[John]
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Nice projecting you got going on there pal.
I mean, really:
"Women tend to use methods that permit escape or discovery before death."
Women don't need to be rescued by you, stop it.
The choose less violent ways. And it's not because they want to secretly be 'rescued'.
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Well, in my reading, that seems to be the conclusion.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/11/981112075159.htm [sciencedaily.com]
Although suicide rates are lower among women, women lead men two to one in suicide attempts. So, Murphy says at least 200,000 women are involved in suicide attempts annually. But he points out that attempted suicide most often is not an attempt to actually end one's life. Its purpose, he says, is to survive with changed circumstances.
"An attempted suicide is not really an attempt at suicide in about 95 percent of cases. It is a different phenomenon. It's most often an effort to bring someone's attention, dramatically, to a problem that the individual feels needs to be solved. Suicide contains a solution in itself," he says.
In attempted suicide, both men and women tend to use methods that allow for second thoughts or rescue. Murphy says that when people intend to survive, they choose a slowly effective, or ineffective, means such as an overdose of sleeping pills. That contrasts to the all-or-nothing means like gunshots or hanging used by actual suicides.
Although that is an older article.
More humorous, the more current articles are saying women have attractiveness issues and choose the method that won't disfigure them and point out that men succeed more often because men use more violent methods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide [wikipedia.org]
[John]
Re:I disagree (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine having to make a rational decision as to the benefits and costs of continued existence, Most people, aside from the very aged and the very depressed would value continued existence quite highly. Now imagine that you were suffering from a mental condition that exaggerated the costs, and downplayed the benefits, such that every day you took time out of your life to seriously contemplate this otherwise laughable dilemma. What if the only thing preventing the suicide was logistical? What if you worried about how hard it would for someone to find your body and clean up the blood and brains? Is that sort of concern really a sign of a healthy mind?
"My life is worthless, but I don't want to be a bother?"
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Imagine having to make a rational decision as to the benefits and costs of continued existence,
What costs? What benefits? How is the valuation of them anything but completely subjective and arbitrary? Maybe they are right, and most of us just have unrealistically optimistic outlooks exaggerating the benefits and downplaying the costs.
Most people, aside from the very aged and the very depressed would value continued existence quite highly.
Most people watch reality TV or sports or both. I won't go anywhere n
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The Fifth Trumpet
â¦5And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. 6And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.
Revelation 9
(I'm not particularly Christian, but find this interesting in the light of current questions of medical ethics)
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I'll bet you get invited to all of the Christmas parties.
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When you have a close relative (or yourself) dying of incurable. unusually painful bone cancer, you may shift your views a tetch.
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It's a very ambiguous situation. Older people, it would appear, are made of sterner stuff than I. They want to live, despite the pain, even at that age. I didn't understand why my father wanted to live into his 80s, his suffering was so great in that last decade. Yet, he resisted dying to the last day.
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That was his choice. If I want a different choice for myself, the government shouldn't interfere.
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What if you choice was the product of a temporary chemical change?
You don't make as many decisions as you think you do. None of us do.
What if you suicide impacts other people?
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It isn't worth treating the cancer of a 70 y.o. so that they may live to 80 or more? Sorry, but I'm not in favor of putting grannie on an ice flow. And in all fairness to the Hudson's Bay Inuit, they only did that in times of severe crisis, when the survival of the entire group was at risk. That hardly describes our current society.
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It isn't worth treating the cancer of a 70 y.o. so that they may live to 80 or more? Sorry, but I'm not in favor of putting grannie on an ice flow. And in all fairness to the Hudson's Bay Inuit, they only did that in times of severe crisis, when the survival of the entire group was at risk. That hardly describes our current society.
Hey now! we have a sever food shortage. If it's 3 am I have to drive 2 blocks to get some pre-made food. I mean, NO one delivers at that time. Barbaric.
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There really is nothing logical about suicide.
Nor is there anything illogical about it. You can only talk about whether something is logical or illogical with respect to a goal. You're assuming the goal is survival. You can argue that there is a survival instinct, but that's something you have in common with a paramecium.
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There are only a couple countries where suicide is legal.
My favorite was when attempted suicide in Great Britain carried the death penalty. "Do it right, or we'll finish the job."
Didn't it also result in forfeiture of your estate there, or desecration of your body, or trampling your flower garden or something like that, too?
I thought I was kind of kidding, but apparently not:
Even in modern times, legal penalties for committing suicide have not been uncommon. By 1879, English law had begun to distinguish between suicide and homicide, though suicide still resulted in forfeiture of estate. Also, the deceased were permitted daylight burial in 1882. [wikipedia.org]
So maybe not the flower garden part,
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It was a bit more [bbc.co.uk] than just be buried at night:
If proven, they were denied a Christian burial - and instead carried to a crossroads in the dead of night and dumped in a pit, a wooden stake hammered through the body pinning it in place. There were no clergy or mourners, and no prayers were offered.
...at least at first, anyway! You can imagine this would be very scarring to the family and very bad in a religious perspective; suicide effectively gets you excommunicated.
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[T]hey were . . . carried to a crossroads in the dead of night and dumped in a pit, a wooden stake hammered through the body pinning it in place. .
Well then. Desecration: check. Wow. It's like the British government was Al Capone as played by Robert DeNiro [youtube.com].
At least maybe I was still kidding about the flowers . . .
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...a wooden stake hammered through the body pinning it in place...
suicide effectively gets you mistaken for Dracula
I never thought I'd stoop to this, but.. There, fixed that for you!
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Always.
Combined mood and mental state (Score:2)
And how accurate were the "clinical measures of mood and mental state" by themselves?
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That's sort of the key. It's hard to say. If you successfully intervene, then the person doesn't commit suicide. If you don't they might. Most of the time, you can rank sucidality. Not all of the time, just like most things.
I don't think that this is going to lead to a 'suicide test' - it's rather early in the game for that. It will likely lead to more grant money in the short term and perhaps a better understanding of mood disorders in the long term. It's interesting that they focused on bipolar pa
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It will certainly help lots of people but of course opens up some interesting containers of slimy invertebrates (ie, politicians).
They can always be euthanized.
Vampires in danger? (Score:2)
Have we disprove free will yet? (Score:2)
We tend to find find these predictors however they mean a statically increase of something not necessary that action will occur.
There are people with all sorts of mental issues that are living productive and legal lives, because while their instincts may be to do something anti-social, we were taught to not do such, and we are well trained not to do that.
Suicide may have predictors for it, but it doesn't mean that the person will be Suicidal, even during tough times, however there will be an instinct, that
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Unfortunately, the more we find out about this type of stuff the less personal responsibility people seem to have.
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Yep, its like genetics and intelligence, while no doubt they are correlated, someone who has the best genes in the world but does nothing but sleep, eat Cheetos and watch MTV is going to be less smart ...
Or maybe he's very smart, and just doesn't give a damn what you think.
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NO, he would still be more smart. Just not as knowledgeable and probably lack critical thinking skills.
That said, spending you life enjoying something isn't dumb.
"..less personal responsibility people seem to have."
over 90% of things you 'think about' or 'decide on' where determine in your brain before you started thinking about it.
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However those stupid people who make bad decisions can get very violent, making it hard to implement in real life.
As well how do you determine who is fit to make the decisions or not. Also it falls under the same flaw that Soviet Style communism has. Progress needs mistakes screw ups, and bad decisions and people who do not follow the same drummer.
The PC revolution, all the business owners say these Personal Computers are not powerful enough to be useful so they said that they didn't want to make them. S
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I really enjoy learning about the latest in radical left-ish politics from you. You could do well at Fox News to find new bogeymen for them.
Sounds like more eugenics propaganda (Score:3, Interesting)
The list of eugenics propaganda is getting longer, and I'll have to study this to determine if it needs to go there. On a hunch, I'm guessing that it will. I'm not a MD, but wonder if this is even possible due to toxins the body produces right after death as well as another more obvious reason. Suicide is generally a result of depression as well as other symptoms. The obvious reason for this to fail is that currently there is no way (nor should there be) to test someones blood to determine if they are suffering from depression. They could of course determine levels of substances, but humans are adaptive and can live with a huge tolerance or lack of certain hormones, amino acids, etc...
Now maybe it's just me, but the summary seems extremely familiar to "Detecting mental illness by analyzing your tweets", and "Detecting mental illness by analyzing your social media habits" which we have seen within the last year and a half. This one is a bit better disguised, but not disguised enough.
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First, gene marker studies are unlikely to be tainted by 'toxins'. You have the gene or you don't. Dying doesn't give you more DNA. And yes, the Holy Grail is to use objective testing to tease out the determinant basis of a bunch of subjective issues (psychiatric diseases).
This is quite a bit different from detecting mental illness by analyzing your tweets (a tautology). It's more an attempt to find a molecular basis of why some people are twits and others not.
Best adjust your undies. Your biases are s
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The attempt to find molecular basis I have disputed for two reasons. I'm sure an MD can do a better job of it, and I will be discussing this issue with friends and become more familiar with it.
Psychiatric diseases and diagnosis have become nearly laughable. The bible used to determine a diagnosis has been the subject of controversy since it was first published, and has grown more controversial in the last 2 revisions. If you are not questioning an industry where children are diagnosed as mentally ill and
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If we could find a molecular basis for them we wouldn't have to rely on diagnosis criteria like "shows signs of anger when confronted" which can be horribly misinterpreted.
The answer to poor science is not less science, the answer is more, better science so we can fix the problem. Science is self-correcting like that.
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If we could find a molecular basis for them we wouldn't have to rely on diagnosis criteria like "shows signs of anger when confronted" which can be horribly misinterpreted.
Not only can it be misinterpreted, but it is an absolutely normal reaction! Should you be "diagnosed" and forced to take medication for not changing your opinion when someone yells at you? Come now, it's not just a matter of more or less science. It's what the science is attempting to do, and whether or not there is any benefit to society if the "science" runs its full course. Unfortunately Science is not always self-correcting in time to prevent massive harm to society and civilizations.
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" Should you be "diagnosed" and forced to take medication for not changing your opinion when someone yells at you? "
no one said anything about yelling, they said confronted.
Thinking, learn it.
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YOu are the fool because you clearly don''t understand why the book is controversial.
It's a GUIDELINE, that is all. The primary controversy is the insurance companies have broken these guideline into hard line that become difficult to bill for.
Don't be that idiot who stands that saying 'X doesn't work' becasue of some other controversy within the field.
" If you are not questioning an industry where children are diagnosed as mentally ill and put on medication because they want to play"
No one does that.
" That
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You deserve this [lmgtfy.com] and that's just a start.
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The obvious reason for this to fail is that currently there is no way (nor should there be) to test someones blood to determine if they are suffering from depression.
It's been known for quite some time that both depression and predisposition to suicides have a genetic component. So yes, you most certainly should be able to test someone's blood to determine if they are at an increased risk for depression, it's just a question of identifying which genes are responsible.
The list of eugenics propaganda is getting longer, and I'll have to study this to determine if it needs to go there
Recognizing that our genes have an effect on us isn't "eugenics." It's common-sense. DNA controls the color of my eyes, my skin, the type of hair I have, my height, my body type, the relative chances I h
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While eugenics is tainted by its association with unfortunate historical happenstance, it doesn't have to be.
That is a terribly naive statement. You ignoring human nature won't take away human nature. The same things we see today were happening in our first records of political history. Read Plato's "The Republic" and "The Dialogues of Plato" for starters.
As you stated, correlation != causation. Humans cope with numerous things very well. Even if you could detect a "suicide" gene, it does not mean that someone will attempt suicide. So what is the benefit of detection? Stop and think about that one for a bit
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"The obvious reason for this to fail is that currently there is no way (nor should there be) to test someones blood to determine if they are suffering from depression."
More then likely a lot of long term depression is probably a break down in the body's resiliency from being exposed to long term stress over time. i.e. being bullied in school, anxiety, constant work, etc.
All these things add up over time and most likely do some damage to regulatory mechanisms that most people are oblivious to but some peopl
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I read the article, what I don't see is who founded it and how they come to the determination that they can do what they claim. The article is written at a 10K view, which is fine.
I like how you apologize for your ad hominem, but it does not take it away. The main concern I have was ignored by you. Either failed to read or really can't argue my point. Thanks for playing "I know fallacy" and have a nice day.
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And yet you confused gene-expression with genetics.
I did no such thing. In the first post I mentioned that there are numerous things to detect and measure, none of them were genes. I really hope you are not trying to claim that the only cause of suicide is genetic disorder.
BTW, the funding is there as always:
According to the referenced article [nature.com] this is a wide field study with 64 references to track down. Funding for certain projects is not always obvious, but harder when you have to research that many connections. Shelters to hide fund sources are not something new or unheard of.
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This is the same person that didn't think a lack of basic physics knowledge was relevant to an opinion disagreeing with physicists on HAARP on a previous story, so I'm sensing a pattern here.
No matter who you were referring to makes no difference. This is just an ad homimen that diverts from the points, instead of offering any countering thought. You sound like a person that can't debate their own opinion so try to get revenge hiding as AC.
How to get a blood sample (Score:5, Funny)
We need a blood sample to test for suicidal tendencies. Could you make a small cut in your wrist please?
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I'm ok, I'm just thinking, you know? Why don't you get me a Pepsi?
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Get some when i'm under that train.
See, that's what happens what you get off the wagon...
Suicide marker? (Score:3)
Maybe this is perhaps a sign of severe depression rather than simply suicide. I read the article and depression wasn't mentioned until the end and only briefly. Happy people don't kill themselves.
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Happy people don't kill themselves.
I disagree. While undoubtedly the vast majority of suicides are due to severe depression and unhappy people, there are a number of other reasons why people commit suicide. For some, they want to go out with dignity. Others have a debilitating illness and want to be in their right mind when they die rather than die unable to even recognize their own children.
Now that doesn't mean that suicide is the answer or that I condone suicide or anything, merely that there are some people who commit suicide witho
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The 80% success rate is because people these people are failures. They can't even kill themselves without screwing it up.
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" Happy people don't kill themselves."
wrong.
You should research the topic.
Some work to do (Score:3)
As the researcher admits:
The next step, he says, is to look at the levels of these biomarkers in the general population and in other at-risk populations, such as those with depression or suffering from stress or bereavement. “Suicide is not just related to mental illness,” he says. “It’s a very complex behaviour (sic*).”
That might just be an understatement, there. Generalizing results to the population as a whole, as opposed to people with known disorders that already predispose them to a higher risk of suicide (and other behavior-related premature mortality) would be the interesting part if it worked.
*Yes, I know that "behaviour" is the correct spelling in British English, but since I'm writing this in the US, I feel obligated to note that I am not misspelling it in my version of written language. It's my way of honoring The Economist magazine's editorial policy, in reverse, that is.
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I think it's better to assume that quotes are correctly quoted in the first place and to only use sic in instances where you specifically want to point out that the quote is mangling grammar or spelling in order to convey a specific impression to the reader.
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I honestly think sic isn't needed there and I believe most news organizations are phasing it out in general.
I agree, and I thought it was unnecessary and probably just a petty little dig when I saw The Economist do it. In addition to that, they "correct" proper names of US institutions as if they were merely descriptions.
Anyway, from thence comes my retaliatory use of "sic".
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It's supposed to be "[sic]", not "(sic)".
Pedants of the world, challenge each other!
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False.
Traditionally the sic appears after the quote in parentheses (round brackets): "(sic)", especially when the error is obvious
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic [wikipedia.org]
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But the OP placed it within the quotation marks.
“It’s a very complex behaviour (sic*).”
He should have written it
“It’s a very complex behaviour." (sic)
Or as I advised
“It’s a very complex behaviour [sic]."
which suggests that it specifically applies to the last word.
From the Wikipedia article you cited:
When placed within quoted material, square brackets are almost invariably used in modern U.S. usage: "[sic]". Traditionally the sic appears after the quote in parentheses (round brackets): "(sic)", especially when the error is obvious.
Furthermore, the asterisk should have appeared after the closing quotation mark.
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Maybe we should write the "Slashdot Style Manual" (Creative Commons licensed 'natch). We could give the MLA [wikipedia.org] some competition, and include useful modern usages such as "whooosh" and "IANAL".
My choice of predictor (Score:2)
If the blood is coming out of the patient's wrists in spurts, out of a gunshot wound to the head (where the patient has the gun in one hand and a note in the other), then it's likely the person is suicidal.
Unhealthy "mind" - unhealthy body ...? (Score:2)
Not understanding the abstract. What kind of biomarkers? Do they indicate certain genes or do they indicate certain chemicals that are more prevalent during depression?
If they indicate certain chemicals, then could those chemicals perhaps be responsible for depressed people having worse health and less energy than happy people? Of course depression is usually due to a variety of reasons, but could their elimination perhaps help depressed people recover faster?
If they indicate certain genes, then that's a
Let me guess (Score:2)
Tune in next week when... {flips coin}
Oh, and game shows are back!
Check Please.... (Score:2)
Self promoting prick. It's mental illness. Stop trying to elevate your work beyond what it is.
"Niculescu says that this type of work is usually done with much larger sample sizes but that he and his colleagues used rigorous, multi-step methods to weed out false positives."
You have a fucking small sample size. Deal with it! And the sample was that of men with bipolar disorder
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Maybe that step is unnecessary, as the blood markers derive from the drugs that have already been prescribed to those likely depressed people.
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Hilarious. But more realistically, let's find out what drug they're being given that's killing them, and develop a counter-agent.
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Well, I was pointing to something a little more sinister, but yeah, you could read my comments that way, sure. ;-)
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Do your other six personalities agree?
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Employers are already drug testing for a large number of professions. Its not Gattaca by a long stretch though. Personally, I don't want to work with people that are unsafe for mental
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They should make Scientology in a pill format, but I am pretty sure it would only come as a large suppository with a dry rough surface.