Intercontinental Mind-Meld Unites Two Rats 176
ananyo writes "The brains of two rats on different continents have been made to act in tandem. When the first, in Brazil, uses its whiskers to choose between two stimuli, an implant records its brain activity and signals to a similar device in the brain of a rat in the United States. The U.S. rat then usually makes the same choice on the same task. Miguel Nicolelis, a neuroscientist at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that this system allows one rat to use the senses of another, incorporating information from its far-away partner into its own representation of the world. 'It's not telepathy. It's not the Borg,' he says. 'But we created a new central nervous system made of two brains.' Nicolelis says that the work, published today, is the first step towards constructing an organic computer that uses networks of linked animal brains to solve tasks. But other scientists who work on neural implants are skeptical."
cool. (Score:3)
". But other scientists who work on neural implants are skeptical.""
as they should be,. It's a big deal, as such it will require good data and be repeatable.
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there's also the whole of, how did they know where to plant the wires? do they even know if the rats can communicate? how do they know rats even shared information and not just random brain impulses? how do they know they used the shared information?
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how do they know rats even shared information and not just random brain impulses? how do they know they used the shared information?
By doing science.
When the first, in Brazil, uses its whiskers to choose between two stimuli, an implant records its brain activity and signals to a similar device in the brain of a rat in the United States. The U.S. rat then usually makes the same choice on the same task.
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smart ass'ed ness aside (ill ignore that for now, thankyou), i get that they did "science".
but theres no information about study controls to determine how different the us rat is from any other rat faced with the same choice. to prove that the rat made his choice because of the signals from the other rat.
more importantly, how did the brazil rat know to communicate those signals? or is the us rat able to passively read the brazil rats brain/memories? if so, how?
cause what that implies is that the rat's brain
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The Brazil rat didn't "know" to communicate signals. The US rat didn't "read" the mind of the Brazil rat.
Here's how it works.
There is a recording electrode in Brazil Rat's head. It passively records the activity from a region of the brain involved in the task. There is a stimulating electrode in US Rat's head. It passively replays the activity that was recorded from Brazil Rat's head.
The control condition in this case is what happens to the US Rat's choice behavior when they shut off the stimulating electro
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The impression I get from TFA is not that they're skeptical that it can be repeated. Rather, they're skeptical that there is any important advance here. They've been doing implants to send and receive signals for some time. Since only a single bit is being transferred ("Go"), it's a pretty poor sort of "mind meld". It's not really thoughts being transferred at all, just a mental button-push, which they've been able to do for quite some time on both ends. And the Internet connection in between is pure window
shock right brain. (Score:2)
When rat one moved his left foot, the right brain of rat two was shocked, and ... moved his left foot.
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Unfortunately, a meta-mind created by a gestalt of many interconncted humans subconciously sharing data with each other would be just as susceptable to mental illnesses as the individual human minds it is comprised of. Humans attached having "seditious" thoughts that they would never dream of acting on themselves, would still influence the behavior of the gestalt mind in much the same way a handful of 'diseased' neurons in a single human can profoundly influence behavior. (Or how things like depression wor
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I am talking out of my ass here:
But I imagine that impaired brain function leading to external manifestation of mental illness probably stems from the core functionality of 1 person's brain being damaged. I imagine that a network of minds would be comprised of independent nodes with separate internal functions. I would imagine mental issued from impaired brain function to remain localized.
If for example internal functions were also distributed, the solutions to that person's problem could also be distribute
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Signal cascade anomalies are a recurring malady in many people, and is an underlying feature of many forms of epilepsy.
[Obligatory wikipedia reference [wikipedia.org]]
It is important to stress that a directly interconnected hivemind would suffer timing issues if signals were sanitized by the technological component before being relayed, causing many of the cognitative deficits found in people with mylelination defects to become manifest in the gestalt conciousness. It would also run foul of the halting problem.
This means t
What are we going to do today, Brain? (Score:5, Funny)
Oh c'mon Pinky, you already know, you DMA'd it from me 250nS ago.
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Jerri Ryan (Score:1)
Four Mice? (Score:1)
I for one... (Score:3)
... refuse to issue the standard obligatory decades old Simpson's joke that typically accompanies a story like this one.
Re:I for one... (Score:4, Insightful)
I for one refuse to issue the standard obligatory decades old Simpson's joke that typically accompanies a story like this one.
... out of respect to our cyber-enhanced rat overlords.
Rat Wireheading (Score:4, Insightful)
I notice they do not include a picture of the wireheaded rats (only an artists impression). Probably wise. While I for one believe that the advancement of science to be the greatest height to which a rat could aspire, I have a feeling that others (and possibly the rats) do not feel the same way.
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There's a picture here [guardian.co.uk].
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It looks really weird. Why didn't they use a thinner cable?
Because this is a picture of the scientist [allpostersimages.com]
video (Score:2)
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I take it you didn't look at the whole page. There's a video in the link.
Not the Borg? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, sounds almost exactly like what I'd think was the beginnings of the Borg.
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Actually, sounds almost exactly like what I'd think was the beginnings of the Borg.
No, your grandpa probably is. There are a lot of cyborgs walking around today -- I'm one, thanks to my CrystaLens implant. Those, cochlear implants, pacemakers, artificial joints, etc. Fifty years ago (less, actually) there were no cyborgs. Today, we're common. Tomorrow? Who knows?
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Mmm. No, I think the thing that sets the Borg apart from others is their networked mind.
Geordi had a VISOR / eye implants and Picard had an artificial heart. No one ever said these were a slippery slope to being Borg.
But directly connecting your mind to another, to lose your sense of individuality, THAT is the first step to full on Borg time.
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Yep; in fact, the Borg specifically worked with implants, hence the need to physically assimilate victims.
I was thinking of The Matrix instant learning. (Score:2)
I for one welcome our ninja-trained helicopter-piloting rat underlords.
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'It's not telepathy.'
It is, almost by definition.
'It's not the Borg,'
It is, almost exactly by definition.
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No, this is a simple learning process masquerading as "mind-melding". The important part is that both rats were trained: the first one to choose the right lever, and the second one was trained to act based on the electric stimuli of its brain. It's not different from having the first rat turn a lamp on for the second one. In fact, you can leave the first rat completely out of the equation, and the second one would act the same way. The second rat didn't know there was a first one and the first one didn't kn
Clustering (Score:1)
Imagine a Wolf cluster of these.
Sex (Score:2, Funny)
This idea has some interesting real-world applications
1. Sex
???
???
4. Profit
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Simstim [technovelgy.com] had to start somewhere.
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If there's a middle step here, I guess it's "wires". But there's really no need for question marks in that old-as-time equation. ;)
Cranium Rats (Score:1)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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This book needs to be made into a movie posthaste.
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Saturn's Race, by Larry Niven. similar concept, only a scientist melding his own mind with a shark.
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...not individually conscious, but when together in packs form a single sentient organism.
Isn't that (one of) the current theory(s) about colony insects such as ants and bees?
As I've heard said, if you want the most alien-looking stuff, look no further than right here on Earth.
Douglas Adams was right! (Score:2)
Interesting that the hyperintelligent pan-dimensional beings that we call mice would direct us to use their traditional enemies, rats, as preliminary test subjects for the future wiring of all of humanity into one hyper-super-duper-parallel-mind-games-puper-computer to come up with the question much sooner than we would otherwise.
The Shining? (Score:1)
I want to know the protocol. (Score:5, Funny)
Clearly we need an RFC for the Brain-To-Brain-Interface Protocol.
Hopefully it'll be built on top of SSL. I don't want someone hacking into my rats.
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"Always mount a scratch rat [wikipedia.org]!"
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Clearly we need an RFC for the Brain-To-Brain-Interface Protocol.
You've been modded funny but this is actually insightful.
The fantasy of "brains working together" is based on a transparently stupid idea: that adding more manpower to a late project will not make it later. Communication and thinking are hard, and brains are decidedly non-standard components, with different internal representations of pretty much everything.
As a friend who works in GIS is fond of saying, "If I take a group of geologists out in the field and have them map an area, at the end of the day I ca
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Going in the other direction, I'm reminded of the robot armies in Stanislaw Lem's "Cyberiad" that were tricked into linking their minds up, soldier-to-soldier. In the end, the two opposing armies coalesced into two mega-minds whose personalities (which had tendencies to intellectual distraction) were completely incapable of carrying out the original task of fighting.
Is one named, ``Lady El''? (Score:2)
See the science fiction novel, _Lady El_ by Jim Starlin and Dana Graziunas.
Women.. (Score:2)
Too early! (Score:2)
Someone let this out a month and a day too early.
This is how it starts (Score:1)
And the rat said... (Score:2)
Researcher: press that lever, you rat!
Rat: I realize that command does have its fascination, even under circumstances such as these, but I neither enjoy it nor am I frightened of it. It simply exists, and I will do whatever logically needs to be done.
I admit the financial possibilities are endless (Score:1)
Why you should be skeptical:
1. Slapping implants that record...something, and then slapping implants that...play back something that stimulate neurons in the exact same way as they were firing when recorded is a hell of an accomplisment.
This alone is sci-fi level stuff.
2. It's doubtful such activity, on the level of a neuron applies to a blanket region as if projecting on a screen. You wouldn't be "projecting" the correct micro-piece on the correct destination neuron.
3. Even with sufficiently fine neuronal
Rats with One Mind (Score:5, Funny)
I hate to break it to the researchers, but getting a pack of rats to operate under the same collective consciousness has been done before [americanbar.org]
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Should have tried that with cats. (Score:2)
...since cats do, in fact, have pointy ears. I would have thought that that would be a major help here.
Also, as a cat lover, I vehemently object to giving mice any special training or equipment that might topple the fragile balance of power between mice and cats. I'm going to file a protest to the United Species Security Council!
Cranium Rats (Score:2)
Oh great, we've just taken the first step into creating Cranium Rats [sorcerers.net]. Bring enough of those together and there'll be talk about overthrowing the bonds human opression.
Got into a conversation with my mom about this (Score:2)
me: this is scary: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/02/28/1615207/intercontinental-mind-meld-unites-two-rats [slashdot.org] Sent at 1:14 PM on Thursday
Poet: scarey
i think it is brilliant
me: its good research, but the implications are scary
Poet: thinking of healing applications for people with brain injury
or spinal cord injury
oh yeah
me: being able to map/read sections of the brain for brain injury and to control prosthetices is great
Poet: let the army use it create sleeper assasins all over the workd
yet the army could
me: but could you imagine the popup adverts coming through your nural implant telling you to go buy Tide detergent.. you dont know why you bought it, you just
did Poet: shit
that is scary
me: actually you do know why you bought it.. you wanted it.. but why did you want it, and why did it feel so good to buy it.. like a hit of opium?
jeez I am cynical
There's no way this could go wrong... (Score:1)
We are the Borg,squeeek squeeek (Score:1)
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Lower your shields and surrender your chips!
Pinky and the Brain (Score:2, Funny)
"Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?"
"Actually, yes, Brain; for once, I am. *narf* *poit*"
Wait... (Score:3)
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Well, he is schizophrenic and unfortunately all the new supercomputer does is eat, mate and scratch, which is more or less what its creators do on the weekends, but still, you have to start somewhere.
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I guess the wire coming out of his brain is occluded by the tinfoil hat.
Sensationalist not revolutionary (Score:1)
I work in this field, and the work here is not nearly as revolutionary as made out.
We have known for about a decade that a brain can learn to integrate arbitrary patterns of electrical stimuli. This work was done by many groups including the group that performed the current study, so they are clearly aware of that work. Since the placement of recording electrodes and the stimulating electrodes in these experiments are essentially random at a cellular level, there is no reason to treat the recorded signal di
We are complete. Much power. (Score:2)
My whiskers with your whiskers...my cheese with your cheese...
PAIIIIIIIIIIN!!!!!!!
What, no Beowulf Cluster joke? (Score:2)
Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these!
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Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these!
A Beowulf Cluster of cheese?
I felt a little sick after reading this summary. (Score:2)
Doesn't this make anyone else a little uneasy? It doesn't sound terribly ethical to me...
Inter-Continental?? (Score:1)
My body and mind is ready. (Score:2, Funny)
To be permanently wired to a porn-star.
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How do you think the Borg Queen keeps her drones in line? )
Related Futurama Quote (Score:2)
Pffft! Had it thirty years ago. (Score:2)
Vulcans do it without wires. (Score:2)
Sounds like a bumper sticker to me.
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Citation needed.
The boundaries that make up continents are to a degree arbitrary and depend upon the person making the statement. There's no real justification for Europe being a continent; Europe and a large part of Asia are on one tectonic plate, while the easternmost part of Asia is on the same plate as North America. And the Indian subcontinent is on yet another plate.
So, it's ultimately local custom that determines the number of continents.
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I've seen Americans claim that the sun rotates around the earth.
Everything is relative, and I am at the center of it all.
Although, I would have said "The sun 'revolves' around the earth." But that is just me.
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Hemisphere? Yes. Continent? No.
Surely you've heard of North America and South America, right? Yes, they're connected by land, but so are Europe, Asia and Africa... they're still separate continents.
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It's exactly as well defined (by the great circle joining Greenwich to the International Date Line). It's just that nobody wants to use it that way.
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North and south are also defined by convention. Because we decided that that one was north, that became the rule for every other object in the universe.
(Actually we have two norths. Depending on which convention you use.)
Re:Intercontinental? (Score:5, Funny)
And I thought Brazil and the United States belonged to the same continent...
Yea, that can happen when you sleep through geography.
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Ah, but this is not a question of geography, but rather one of politics...
God bless the United Earth of America!
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So, whose politics shaped the tectonic plates [wikipedia.org]?
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Continents are land-masses, not political divisions.
Gotta love slashdot and its tradition of snarky, but ignorant, posts.
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While traveling through Europe I could say I am an Amererican, and they knew I was not referring to USA.
I bet.
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Ok I can only vouch for Germany, France, the UK, Spain and Italy, but if you said "I am American" 95% of the time it is assumed you are US-American. (Not USAian! Nobody uses that term.) This is because a Brazilian will say he is from Brazil and a Canadian will say he is from Canada and a Mexican will say he is from Mexico. Only the US-Americans will say he is from America. The again there are pedants like you that will understand what he means and argue with him about semantics.
But the thing is that when yo
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International flame-bait (Score:2, Insightful)
And I thought Brazil and the United States belonged to the same continent...
Yea, that can happen when you sleep through geography.
Or take Geography at a U.S. school.
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Well, for French and and German schools this is the same...
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...could go wrong?
This is how the Borg begins.
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...could go wrong?
This is how the Borg begins.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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It's Bitmouse!
A USB mouse.
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That phrase is so completely removed from reality that I'm in fact surprized that anybody (you) cared about it.
When a boy tells his girlfriend that he'll give her the Moon, people don't stop to think about property rights either.
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