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Student Refusing RFID Badge Now Fights Expulsion Order

Soulskill posted about a year and a half ago | from the had-me-until-mark-of-the-beast dept.

Education 743

BeatTheChip writes "Lawyers representing Andrea Hernandez, a science and engineering student at John Jay High School, are fighting an expulsion notice issued a week ago for refusing to wear a Smart ID badge. To represent her, lawyers filed a preliminary court injunction, seeking legal restraints on the school. She maintains stance of refusal to wear any badge containing an RFID tag for reasons of basic privacy and conflicts with her belief system. The controversial decision for her school to adopt the NFC badges is part of the Student Locator Project, tracking attendance. Local schools started issuing the lanyard badges this fall despite parental outcry at NISD school board meetings."

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Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (5, Informative)

feepness (543479) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052117)

Wear it all day long.

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (4, Insightful)

treeves (963993) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052141)

So she can be marked as absent when she's actually in school? Great solution. Better to pursue the lawsuit.

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052217)

Easily disputable. If/when someone comes to find her in class, they will find her. Who is to say a malfunctioning badge was intentional or not?

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052145)

You still carry the mark of the beast with you. Even though it would be unreadable :).

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (5, Insightful)

wvmarle (1070040) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052161)

I was thinking of a tinfoil pouch for it. No need to destroy it; just make it readable only when you allow for it to be read. Willingly destroying the chip may have other legal implications (the badge may be property of the institution) - and anyway they're likely to issue a new one when one is found faulty.

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (4, Insightful)

mrjb (547783) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052189)

Destroy badge, get expelled for destruction of school property.

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (4, Interesting)

jamesh (87723) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052257)

Destroy badge, get expelled for destruction of school property.

Almost... try "_Get caught_ destroying badge, get expelled for destruction of school property."

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (4, Interesting)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052239)

It won't open any doors then.

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052525)

The number of doors a solid educational background can open up for you in life are uncountable

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (3, Insightful)

Zemran (3101) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052367)

Wouldn't it be better to just leave it in her locker and always be at school?

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (5, Informative)

kf6auf (719514) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052427)

Actually, the school offerred to give her one without a chip or battery. She still refused so I'm guessing she wouldn't be satisfied with the microwave trick.

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (1)

Wandering Voice (2267950) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052539)

So the lesson to be learned is one of conformity then?

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (5, Informative)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052441)

Read the letter linked from infowars:
http://static.infowars.com/2012/11/i/general/Hernandez_RFID-ID-john_jay_letter.jpg [infowars.com]

"In the event that you change your stance on wearing the ID with the battery and chip removed as has been offered to you on two occasions, we will be more than willing to rescind this withdrawal notice."

That seems reasonable, except for the fact that she was also told her original pre-RFID card would be valid for all 4 years she was enrolled at the school.

Everything aside, the zero tolerance policies that most school administrators (officially or unofficially) adopt is an injustice all its own.

Re:Put badge in microwave for 10 seconds. (0)

etash (1907284) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052471)

No. It's a matter of principle. That wuld mean you are weak and a worm. The right thing to do is stand by your principles and not accept it in the first place. By accepting it in the first place, means you accept its legitimacy. p.s. no, i'm not a religious nutjob who believes in 666 etc, atheist here.

RTFA (3, Informative)

jklovanc (1603149) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052493)

She was offered a badge without an RFID chip in it. She refuses to wear a badge of any sort.

Re:RTFA (3, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052607)

I think my proposal for the protest against the UK ID cards would work in this case: create a bright yellow holder for the badge in the shape of a Star of David and wear it on your arm. Get some local press to photograph you wearing it.

The education system (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052135)

Where you are taught and tested on how to have no free will and give up any rights someone in authority asks for so that one day you can be a model slave, errr.... worker.

Get homeshcooled (4, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052139)

The school has a right to watch its costs and protect their students. If not then the lawyers will go after them for not using RFID yada yada.

For someone who works in the education system, I have to say the reason for this is money. The budgets are set on enrolled students. Not paper enrolled but physically enrolled each day. If a poor inner city school has a 20% truancy problem, then the budget is cut 20% and the teachers are fired.

I am more upset at the lawyers who are costing teachers jobs and I doubt their parents are in it for their child. They have a free lottery ticket at someone elses expense. Perhaps if parents were not so sue happy American schools could successful compete with Asian and European counterparts.

Schools have a right to enforce a learning environment as oppressive as some of the highschool slashdotters readers who want to say otherwise. At work you have to do what your boss says or you will be shown the door. What is so different with school. These are not implanted chips or anything and with drug dealers, pedophiles, and other problems it is not a bad idea to track where each student is.

Re:Get homeshcooled (5, Insightful)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052181)

It is a public school. School has only the rights the public allows it to. If the people are opposed to RFID tracking of their kids, the school has just lost their right to track them.

Re:Get homeshcooled (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052215)

That is a little tricky. If I as a teacher choose to come into work with a bikini and get fired, can I countersue claiming I was in a public place? No, it is still trespassing.

The public would have to put in a law not to do this. An airport is a public place too. Have any rights there? Ha, good luck! You have a right to leave or put up with it if you want a flight is about it.

So far the public supports financially hurting the school for letting a child leave without them knowing or have attendance issues. So the RFID was made to negate these problems. Of course if they really want to solve it the public needs to fine bad parents for letting their kids cut class and not attend school meetings. But that is another matter altogether. :-)

Re:Get homeshcooled (1, Informative)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052227)

Public school not public place. Public school as in funded by taxes. Or were you just trolling?

Re:Get homeshcooled (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052527)

I think he just got confused with public pool.

Re:Get homeshcooled (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052259)

What is so different with school than my job? Really?

I'm legally required to go to school until a certain age. I can just quit my job if I'm not accepting of their requirements. I'm also paying for school in taxes and get to have a say in how it is run. I'm not paying to go to my job.

And there is no pedophile problem in high school since 9th graders and up are not young children, regardless of how our fem-centric society tries to redefine the term.

Re:Get homeshcooled (4, Interesting)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052287)

As a school employee we took turns patrolling the lots looking for passengers masturbating in their cars right outside the school everyday as well as flashers. Yes it really is an epidemic. Sadly we can't do anything outside school grounds.

You have a choice to be home schooled if you do not like it. Another choice is take the GED test and graduate early. Many districts have alternative schools too. You do have options and I know my post might have set off a few nerves.

If you become a teacher your opinion will drastically change with the amount of disrespect and the pressure to have those test scores up to keep your job. Only teachers who have been there for awhile get tenured contrary to what they say on Fox News.

Re:Get homeshcooled (4, Insightful)

gandhi_2 (1108023) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052437)

I have no doubt some administrator somehwere told someone to go patrol for perverts. I seriously doubt anyone found one, and I'm sure it isn't an epidemic. And I'm even more sure that society would sit idly by if you DID find a masturbating pervert in his/her car. Cops dream of such an easy, high-profile bust.

And I don't give a shit how long you've been on the job. Tenure is bullshit. It's academic castlebuilding paid for by others.

have those test scores up to keep your job

I haven't had a job YET that I didn't have to prove I was worth a shit. Teachers somehow got a pass on that. But don't worry, the teachers will simply redefine the metric until all that is tested is anti-bullying policy questions and self esteem.

Bill Clinton: Thank you, Lisa, for teaching kids everywhere a valuable lesson: If things don't go your way, just keep complaining until your dreams come true.
Marge: That's a pretty lousy lesson.
Bill Clinton: Hey, I'm a pretty lousy president.

Re:Get homeshcooled (1, Interesting)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052475)

I just told you I have seen men stalk and masturbate to children walking by with my own eyes! I was prohibited to report it as it would open the school to liability as a lawyer could then argue the schools responsibility for safety now includes the entire walk home and we would be liable for every infraction afterwards etc. My job was to report their ass as soon as any body part touched school property. Pedis are always trying to volunteer or get involved with the school.

Again thanks to the lawsuits and dipshits who like to blame schools rather than on more appropriate things.

It is not my problem you never had a job where people respect you. Doesn't mean I have to put up with it ... for the record I did say I was not tenured nor am I unionized either. I have kids who curse at me and call me a cracker and disrepct me to my face! These students are out 20% of the time and yet I should be responsible for these hoodlums doing drugs if they choose not to pass a test? I teach inner city and 60% to 70% passing score is considered great. In other countries the parents spank and discipline their kids for failing. Not take the side of the child and scream at the teacher when the student is out and turns in homework less than 50% of the time. But my job seems secure for now because I do my job.

Re:Get homeshcooled (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052303)

Your passive acceptance of the giving away of the rights of others for the financial rewards given to the district and teachers is disturbing. Yes, in a place of employment an employee is required to do as the boss says. However, that is a voluntary situation where an employer and employee exchange work for salary and benefits and the employee can leave for another job if the situation is unacceptable. In this case, the kids are required to be in school by law. Your solution of "get homeschooled" only moves the financial burden from an overbearing school district to parents who are standing up for the rights of their children. Your argument of boss/employer relationship would make sense if this was in regards to the teachers, but in this case it has very little relevance. Also, in one breath you say that this is strictly for money and attendance - but then are willing to make the leap that it's a good idea with all of the "drug dealers, pedophiles, and other problems" for tracking the students. Then that would make it a safety issue of the school, and that has not been mentioned or brought up as an issue. Knowing where each student is on the location would make no change in the dealing of drugs in the school, and if pedophilia is an issue on campus, that's a personnel/teacher problem - something also not solved by impinging on the rights of the students by tracking them. The issue of education quality in the United States versus Asian or European countries has to do with the focus in the US having to do with fighting wars with administrations trying to force idiotic policies and financial obligations with systems such as this down the throats of parents, districts, and cities instead of focusing on their charge - educating the students. The US spends over 22% of its GDP on education (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.PRIM.PC.ZS) - a significant amount more than many Asian & European countries which achieve better results. The difference is that those education systems do their job - they teach the students - as opposed to here where we just want to know where they are when we're telling them how stupid they are compared to other countries. So in short, Andrea seems to have done the unthinkable in her public school - she's learned. She's learned what her rights are as a citizen, learned how to stand up to a corrupt and bullyish system, and learned that she's not alone in her anger with everyone deciding that they need to know where everyone is at every time - and that people who think it's ok to give away the rights of other people without being stood up to needs to end. And now.

Re:Get homeshcooled (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052309)

A public education is a right given to all students, regardless of any kind of circumstance...it doesn't matter what is going on, the student should be allowed to receive a free and appropriate public education. This has been demonstrated many times in the court systems.

Work is not a right...you have a choice whether to continue to work there or not. In most cases, students don't have these sane choices by the design of our school systems - either they put up with this public school BS, or de-enlist and pursue an education elsewhere. And they are legally entitled to the public education. If something in the public education environment conflicts with them, they should complain...and take legal action if necessary when the complaints fall on deaf ears. This is a right.. You, whom works in public education, should know that pointing towards the door and showing them there other option is not a solution.,,well, I guess it is a solution for most teachers in that they get rid of the immediate problem. Private educations are expensive...and you need resources to home school a child. Something the majority of parents in the public education system cannot afford, and shouldn't need to solely because the school system is being stupid.

So yes, the students and parents and lawyers should sue proverbial pants off the school system, because obviously they are making dumb decisions. With law suits comes staffing changes, and lessons learned. This is essentially a repeat of the 60's south when lawsuits were required to desegregate the public school system.

Want to improve our society? Start with our schools. Adding tracking measures to keep track of the "inventory" is not helping anything, other than making it apparent that the school system cares more about logistics than learning. There a billion better ways to do this instead of treating students like packages.

And besides, how long is it going to take a high school kid to figure out he can have some fun with a computer - or even just stuff his lanyard into the backpack of a friend. Dumb idea. Lawsuit needed. End of story.

Re:Get homeshcooled (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052349)

Schools are government agencies and do not have rights, they have powers.

At work, I can quit if they begin doing things that offend my belief system. Students in school have no such choice, they're required to go to school and if their parents can't afford to pay twice for school (once in taxes, then again in tuition), the student is effectively forced to go to the school nearest to them.

Re:Get homeshcooled (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052357)

Easiest solution, jail the parents of those students who refuse to wear the RFID badge or if the parents themselves make a protest about the RFID badges. They are no different than those RFID badges used in the workplace by adults, they track entry into workplace locations and nothing more. And the school is only using the badges for attendance.

Re:Get homeshcooled (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052417)

Schools worked just fine before this. Think how it worked in your time? What's the difference then?
Is this the only thing left to be done or the easiest? Will this make school more interesting and valuable for students or will it make teachers and directors even more lazy in trying to make it better for students?

A school is not like a company because you pay to attend it. Even if it's from your taxes.

One thing is the respect you must show for your teachers by doing what they ask of you (regarding classes) and another is to contest policies.

Re:Get homeshcooled (2)

Eraesr (1629799) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052449)

Schools have a right to enforce a learning environment as oppressive as some of the highschool slashdotters readers who want to say otherwise. At work you have to do what your boss says or you will be shown the door. What is so different with school. These are not implanted chips or anything and with drug dealers, pedophiles, and other problems it is not a bad idea to track where each student is.

You're reasoning this the wrong way around. Is your boss tracking you with an RFID chip? Would you like it if he did? I guess not, so why would schools be allowed to do this? Also, your "but think of the children!!" reasoning is a little bollocks as well. The school should make sure drug dealers, pedophiles and "other problems" don't get onto school property. If a school feels it's necessary to track students to protect them from those kinds of problems while they're at the school grounds, then the school is doing something very, very wrong.

Re:Get homeshcooled (1)

JanneM (7445) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052483)

"Is your boss tracking you with an RFID chip? Would you like it if he did? "

Yes, actually, in the form of a pass card. How is this different from those cards most people use every day at work? It's not even as if she has to bring it anywhere away from school or anything like that.

Re:Get homeshcooled (1)

cycler (31440) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052601)

It is different in the sense that (at least in Sweden) there are rules, policies and laws that would prohibit an employer to arbitrarily check the log files for attendance.

In addition, these security systems only control when you arrive and leave. The article implies that RFID tracking was used for every class as well as other things and also stopping her from some activities. Sort of like the employer would track what you eat for lunch?

So yes, it is vastly different.

/C

Re:Get homeshcooled (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052509)

Many secure facilities track employees with RFID.

There are places where, as a civilian contractor, if you're caught without a badge you run the risk of being shot, at worst. and at best, escorted permanently out the door.

i support RFID badges for children, if you don't want your kid having to use one that's cool, there are other school options. =)

The door's that way ====>

Re:Get homeshcooled (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052519)

How?

Protecting students should be a number 1 priority! I worked in I.T. before teaching and yes I was tracked the same way with a database and cameras recording every move in the computer room.

Thinking of the children is exactly what a school should be thinking. Not a rant like everything else where that line pops up. If folks stopped disrespecting the school and its staff and instead students who did not show up, do drugs, cut class, and mouth back at the teachers then the US education system would line up more with the rest of the world. I do not understand the knee jerk reaction against the school authorities and teachers. It only exists in the US and Canada as others would blame the students and feel this is a great idea?

Re:Get homeshcooled (5, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052543)

I am more upset at the lawyers who are costing teachers jobs and I doubt their parents are in it for their child. They have a free lottery ticket at someone elses expense. Perhaps if parents were not so sue happy American schools could successful compete with Asian and European counterparts.

Lol wut?
You seem to be ignoring important cultural factors when it comes to lawsuits.

Asia and Europe are polar opposites when it comes to litigation.
In Asia, almost nobody sues because they have a cultural aversion to litigation and the court systems are fucked.
In Europe, lawsuits are less common because the public supports strong government regulatory bodies that ultimately limit the need for people to sue.

In the good old US of A, every sues because the libertarians/conservatives think regulation is bad and civil lawsuits are the solution.
As a bonus, those same libertarians/conservatives want tort reform because all those civil lawsuits are expensive.

At work you have to do what your boss says or you will be shown the door. What is so different with school.

School is not voluntary. Work is.
Homeschooling, while good/bad, isn't an option for everyone.

Re:Get homeshcooled (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052615)

The cheapest option for the school to watch its costs is to not care about attendance and not monitor in any fashion whatsoever. So, no, don't follow that point.

And, frankly, I don't see how this protects the students - from what? Not sure what your point is there.

What you seem to be arguing is that illogical paranoia will rule the day. You may, sadly, be right on that point. :(

Re:Get homeshcooled (1)

N1AK (864906) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052643)

Exactly the same logic can be used to argue that with criminality existing it isn't a bad idea to just tag everyone. Suffice to say it is poor logic and nonsensical solution. Children are safer now than any time in the past these badges aren't going to stop them being abducted or buying drugs. If your schools weren't treating the children like a threat then maybe you'd do a better job of educating them.

Property Rights (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052157)

I just had a rather fascinating an illuminating conversation about this with my significant other (an English teacher) about this topic. It really seems to come down to the question of whether or not students should have a right to privacy in school. I'm not sure they should. I'm also not sure they shouldn't. My significant other was attempting to convince me that they should not and her argument was largely based on property rights. That is, since the school owns the property, they have a right to require students to be tracked in order to allow students to use said property.

What does Slashdot think?

Re:Property Rights (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052173)

So lets say theoretically the students do not use them. Does the school still have cameras and do teachers still take attendance? The answer is yes.

Students are not property but at school property the administrators are responsible and have a right to look after their students.

Re:Property Rights (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052225)

Students are not property but at school property the administrators are responsible and have a right to look after their students.

A RIGHT? They have a privilege given by the public until they abuse it like this and then have it revoked by a series of lawsuits by those unwilling to bend over.

Re:Property Rights (4, Insightful)

readin (838620) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052209)

If you voluntarily enter someone's property, then they should have the right to set the terms of entry. If they want to put a sign up that says "no clothes allowed" then you had better get naked when entering their property.

However, students do not voluntarily enter school. They are required by law to be there. Requiring students to give up rights because they entered your property, when you forced them to enter the property, isn't fair.

But students are minors and are not granted the same rights as adults because they aren't as capable of accepting responsibility as adults. If some rights need to be restricted to maintain order - like drug sniffing dogs being allowed to check lockers without a warrent - then so be it but we should try not to over do it. This RFID thing is over doing it.

Re:Property Rights (2)

xaotikdesigns (2662531) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052235)

They are required by law to be at A school, not THIS school. There are many other options for schooling.

Re:Property Rights (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052365)

Not many, and the few can be removed by parents. They can homeschool if the parent wishes to give up employment, private school if the parent can afford to pay tuition in addition to the mandatory taxes, and that's about it

Public
Home
Private

What other options are there?

Re:Property Rights (1)

readin (838620) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052409)

They are required by law to be at A school, not THIS school. There are many other options for schooling.

None that are practical for most people.

Re:Property Rights (0)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052245)

How is it different than using such a lanyard to enter your office at work?

I do not see the big deal but I am heavily biased in favor of the school as more teachers are hired if students stop skipping class and less lawsuits happen because pedophiles abduct children in the school and they didn't have an RFID to track them etc.

If you say the school should be responsible for child safety and attendance and penalize them as a voter with laws that state only physically present students are actually enrolled, then how is it fair that you sue and criticize them for solving it with RFID.

For the record these are lanyards NOT IMPLANTED CHIPS.

Re:Property Rights (2)

readin (838620) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052387)

How is it different than using such a lanyard to enter your office at work?

First, you are not required to get at an office that requires you to wear a lanyard. You can work independently or choose a different company or you can choose to do nothing (you'll starve, but no one will bother you while you do it).

Second, lanyards don't always contain RFID. A badge only tells those you meet who you are and where you are. RFID can allows the government to track your every move. It's the difference between having a license plate on your car and having a tracking device installed on your car.

Re:Property Rights (1)

BradleyUffner (103496) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052251)

However, students do not voluntarily enter school. They are required by law to be there. Requiring students to give up rights because they entered your property, when you forced them to enter the property, isn't fair.

Yes, they do. The are not required to attend a physical school building. They can be home schooled. I see this as no different from a dress code that virtual every school has.

Re:Property Rights (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052389)

They can be home schooled if it's permitted by law and one parent can afford to forgo employment (but not property taxes). Not much of a choice for many families.

As for dress codes, those could probably be tossed aside or more closely aligned with those at public colleges and universities. Minimal dress codes seem to work just fine at colleges and universities, with students mere months out of high school.

Re:Property Rights (1)

readin (838620) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052403)

Dress code is less intrusive. In fact it's not intrusive at all. Also, home schooling is an option but it is a very difficult option. The government shouldn't be placing parents in the difficult position of having to quit their jobs and take up full-time education or else have their child's privacy massively intruded upon.

Re:Property Rights (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052283)

No right to privacy? There are cameras in the toilets then? Just because you own the property doesn't mean you can do anything you want to people in it. Or even do anything you want to the property. Nowadays in some places even squatters have some rights when staying in property that's not theirs!

Go look at the modern laws governing landlords and tenants. The old laws may have been different - back then if you were a tenant aka serf/peasant the Lord of the Land could fuck your girlfriend or wife (or you) whenever he wanted to, even on your wedding night.

Maybe she wants to go back to the bad old days?

Re:Property Rights (1)

readin (838620) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052457)

No right to privacy? There are cameras in the toilets then? Just because you own the property doesn't mean you can do anything you want to people in it. Or even do anything you want to the property.

If you make it clear to anyone who wishes to use your restroom that there are cameras in there - and you do so early enough that they aren't forced into using the restroom anyway due to an emergency, then yes you should have a right to put cameras there. People who volunteer to use your property should follow your rules - but they should do so knowingly and if you are doing things that violate people's reasonable expectations of privacy then you need to tell them up front before any violation occurs.

Nowadays in some places even squatters have some rights when staying in property that's not theirs!

No, squatters don't have rights when staying on property that isn't theres. They have privileges granted them by an insane government that doesn't care if it violates the rights of property owners.

Go look at the modern laws governing landlords and tenants. The old laws may have been different - back then if you were a tenant aka serf/peasant the Lord of the Land could fuck your girlfriend or wife (or you) whenever he wanted to, even on your wedding night.

Some rights are more important than others. The right of a husband outranks the right of property.

Re:Property Rights (1)

hawkinspeter (831501) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052639)

Even if you notify people about cameras in toilets (I don't go to a "restroom" to have a rest) I don't think you'd have any chance of winning any court cases from disgruntled people. Just because you own the property, you can't make arbitrary rules and infringe on other people's rights.

Dear Andrea, (5, Insightful)

mrjb (547783) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052163)

Thank you for fighting for our freedom. Too few people do. Best regards, mrjb

Re:Dear Andrea, (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052443)

She's not fighting for freedom. She's free to do as she wishes. She's fighting for her privacy.

While I generally dislike the idea of being tracked, I don't really see how winning this would make any difference. It's not like RFIDs can be tracked via satellite or anything so outside of school it's doubtful they'll be able to tell where she is (unless they've installed RFID scanners everywhere in the immediate area, which would be an entirely different issue). They only work within the school where you're probably tracked by cameras in the hallway. Even if she gets them to drop the RFID system they'll still be able to track her the old fashion way, attendance calls.

Reading my thoroughly into the article, they even offered to give her a card without the RFID chip, meaning she wasn't going to be tracked (she still would have needed it to borrow from the library and buy cafeteria food apparently)

As for the religious objections, unless she got the number 666, I don't see the problem (at least one that cannot be solved via a number change). Carrying the card will be just like carrying your government ID (which has numbers on it), or your healthcare card, or any number of other things that 'mark' you via a number.

In a way I see this as sort of an agreement. You can attend this institution if you follow our rules. Here we measure attendance via RFID, don't wear the tag don't get marked as present. Don't have enough attendance don't pass. This is a system that was put in place by a group of elected (at least I assume they're elected there) officials, who in turn likely voted for this to pass. Not following this rule would be like going around murdering people (a rule that was put in place via a vote by people who were voted into office).

Re:Dear Andrea, (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052537)

Not following this rule would be like going around murdering people (a rule that was put in place via a vote by people who were voted into office).

You heard it here first, folks.

We've moved past "if you don't have anything to hide then you won't mind $PRIVACY_RAPE_TACTIC"... that stuff is *so* 2009. Nay, now we have, "refusing to wear government-issued ID in public at all times, upon demand, is morally equivalent to murder."

Wait, sorry, I misrepresented what you said: it's morally equivalent to spree killing. That's very insightful—we're so fortunate to have your calm voice of reason to help bring moderation to our political debates around here!

Question: how many days do you have to refuse to wear your ID lanyard before you are morally worse than Charles Manson? We have a pool going here on the number.

I'm betting the answer is "2 days" (I added an additional day because of the whole Sharon Tate deal).

Thanks in advance!

Re:Dear Andrea, (3, Interesting)

JaredOfEuropa (526365) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052631)

What freedom would that be, exactly? The right not to be tracked, or to go where you please without having to carry an ID? You have that right... and yet you are still required to bring your RFID card to the office, and you still need an ID to pick up a parcel at the post office.

Schools shouldn't be allowed to track children everywhere they go. But since they are charged with the education and well-being of these kids for a certain portion of the day, is it unreasonable that they ask children (and others) to carry an RFID card while on the premises? I fail to see what principle of freedom or privacy is violated by the requirement to carry an ID card (with or without a chip) at school.

See earlier article... (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052175)

...on campus freedom. You get what you can take, and it's always hardest for the first one. If a substantial number of students follow suit, the administration is done.

RFID = The Mark of Beast? (4, Informative)

s1d3track3D (1504503) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052197)

Funny, my initial reaction was, "great, a young engineering student standing up for her 1st and 4th amendment rights.", then I saw her primary reason,...

For many Christian families, including the Hernandez’, the mandatory policy is eerily close to the predictions of Revelations 13: 16-18, which warns of the Mark of the Beast:
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[a] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. (New King James Version)

Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (5, Funny)

Yetihehe (971185) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052343)

Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666

"Him who has understanding" - programmers?
"calculate the number of the beast" - programmers.
"for it is the number of a man" - primary key
"His number is 666" - SELECT * FROM PEOPLE WHERE ID=666;

Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052499)

If you dig into biblical historicity, the number is actually the sum of the letters in the name. Thus, the mapping in SQL would be more like:
SELECT * FROM PEOPLE WHERE NUMERAL_HASH(NAME)=666

Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (1, Insightful)

no_such_user (196771) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052535)

Off topic? Given that it's the protesters PRIMARY ARGUMENT, it seems pretty damn on topic to me.

Anyway, I find it difficult to reconcile the religious aspect of her argument with the fact that she's attending a science and engineering based magnet school. I'm not saying that religion and science are inherently incompatible, but I am saying that her equating an RFID badge to the "mark of the beast" makes me think her devotion to her religion will place a shadow over her science education.

FWIW, the article says the school offered to disable the electronic portion of the badge, but that the school requires the parents to stop protesting. I would love to hear the school's side of this story.

Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (4, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052563)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yep, looks like she's standing up for her 1st amendment rights.

The school also wanted her parents to sign an agreement stating they would publicly support the program.
The parents refused, which sounds like they are standing up for another 1st amendment right..

Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052619)

So what? Hopefully the result is going to be the same anyway.

Re:RFID = The Mark of Beast? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052625)

Give or her first amendment rights, all the way to Oral Roberts University and a job at Chick 'a Fillet

Employement (0)

BradleyUffner (103496) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052221)

This is no different than if an employer requires an employee to wear an RFID badge at work. If you choose not to wear the badge you are fired for not following policy. Same thing at this school; if you don't wear the badge you are expelled (virtually the same as getting fired).

Re:Employement (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052253)

Sure, it's the same thing. Except it's not the same.

Re:Employement (1)

BradleyUffner (103496) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052261)

Sure, it's the same thing. Except it's not the same.

You are going to have to explain this one.

Re:Employement (1)

jcr (53032) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052453)

I believe the AC was alluding to the difference between a voluntary and an involuntary transaction.

-jcr

Re:Employement (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052271)

You obviously failed when taught logic.
Government compels a child to be attend by the force of law, whereas work does not share that whatsoever.
This is "virtually" asinine in terms of comparison.

 

Re:Employement (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052329)

Except for the fact that in this case the parents and the students are paying for a service and/or are contributing tax dollars.

So no, it's not and shouldn't be the same power dynamic as an employee getting fired.

This is an elected school board (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052249)

The "parental outcry" should result in voting in a different board of trustees.

RFID is everywhere (-1, Troll)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052255)

Its on public transport and in pretty much every workplace. If you want to opt out then go and live in a hut, otherwise get used to it.

Re:RFID is everywhere (2)

Mashiki (184564) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052319)

Sorry, I won't "get used to it" perhaps you should get "used to the idea" that people don't want it.

Re:RFID is everywhere (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052407)

Okay what is your alternative?

Privacy and belief (4, Insightful)

tbird81 (946205) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052285)

"for reasons of basic privacy and conflicts with her belief system"

I agree with half of her case.

But someone's "belief system" shouldn't exempt them from following the rules and laws of the land. Otherwise pedo Mormons could marry 13 year-olds, hardcore Muslims could keep their female children out of schools, and fundie Christians could stalk those who are having abortions.

You should oppose a rule because it is wrong for the population, not because it conflicts with your belief system.

Re:Privacy and belief (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052461)

But someone's "belief system" shouldn't exempt them from following the rules and laws of the land. Otherwise pedo Mormons could marry 13 year-olds, hardcore Muslims could keep their female children out of schools, and fundie Christians could stalk those who are having abortions.

you forgot rastafarians legally getting high

Re:Privacy and belief (1)

tbird81 (946205) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052637)

you forgot rastafarians legally getting high

To tell you the truth, it wasn't an exhaustive list I was writing, just a list of examples. A better fourth example would be letting Sikhs take daggers on flights.

But anyway, one could argue that getting high should be legal for anyone, instead of bending laws every time that someone uses their religion or culture to try an ignore.

Re:Privacy and belief (2)

jklovanc (1603149) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052505)

The basic privacy is moot because she was offered a card without an RFID chip.

Re:Privacy and belief (1)

tbird81 (946205) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052647)

(I didn't actually read the article, but thanks!)

Well, I guess that's why she picked religious belief! It's a great way to scare of those who are afraid of offending a religion.

Re:Privacy and belief (5, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052641)

But someone's "belief system" shouldn't exempt them from following the rules and laws of the land. Otherwise pedo Mormons could marry 13 year-olds, hardcore Muslims could keep their female children out of schools, and fundie Christians could stalk those who are having abortions.

Your first statement is flat out wrong and your second is a fallacious slippery slope argument.

We don't force conscientious objectors to serve in the military.
We don't force religious parents to vaccinate their children.
We don't even force the Amish to pay Social Security or Medicare taxes.

About the only time we do force people to violate their belief systems is when it involves safety or imminent health issues.

Your pedo mormon and fundie christian examples fall under the safety umbrella and If fundie Muslims wants to keep their female children out of school, they are welcome to do so, as long as they file the appropriate notice of intent to homeschool and get an education plan approved.

odd claims about RFID (1, Informative)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052299)

'The controversial ID badge includes the photo and name of each student, a barcode tied to the student’s social security number, as well as an RFID chip which pinpoints the exact location of the individual student, including after hours and when the student leaves campus.'

RFID chips don't work that way. They don't know their location. They seem to be worried that the RFID will be read by someone else when the student is off campus. All the student has to do is remove the RFID chip when off campus.

Land of freedom? (1)

Niobe (941496) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052323)

The old USA continues to get scarier and scarier

Re:Land of freedom? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052413)

Scary is not the quite the word. Fucked. Is more like it. You poor Americans. You live in a fucked society.

I just don't get it (4, Insightful)

xaotikdesigns (2662531) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052341)

At school, you have to sit in a specific seat in a specific room, during specific times. You are told when to eat, and have to ask if you can use the bathroom. It's not happy freedom time. They aren't required to wear it outside of school, it's only for use inside the school building.

Every job I've had since graduation in '99 has come with the requirement of an RFID tag either as a key fob or in my ID. I wore it with no question because otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to open any doors.

And the problem is... (3, Insightful)

guitarMan666 (1388859) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052347)

It may well violate her religious beliefs for which she should be exempt and it has long been the case that students' 4th Amendment rights are suspended while on campus at a public school. Since the ID only applies during school hours, is not implanted and is not actively transmitting her location, I fail to see this problem. It isn't dehumanizing to keep track of students on campus, it is responsible. It isn't a violation of her privacy as on school grounds you have relatively little. It isn't eavesdropping on her personal conversations. It's to keep students from cutting class! Nothing more. Can someone please explain why this is a problem?

Alex Jones/infowars (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052371)

Both links are to infowars. Just so you know whose website we're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Jones_(radio_host)

"Alexander Emerick "Alex" Jones (born February 11, 1974) is an American talk radio host, actor and filmmaker. [....] His websites include Infowars.com and PrisonPlanet.com."

"Jones has been the center of many controversies, and has accused the US government of being involved in the Oklahoma City bombing and September 11 attacks."

"In 1998, Jones organized a successful effort to build a new Branch Davidian church as a memorial to those who died during the 1993 fire that ended the government's siege of the original Branch Davidian complex near Waco, Texas. He often featured the project on his Public-access television program and claimed that Koresh and his followers were peaceful people who were murdered by Attorney General Janet Reno and the ATF during the siege."

She should lose (4, Insightful)

Improv (2467) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052395)

Anyone whose brings "against my belief system" to a court of law and expects special consideration because of that should lose.

Re:She should lose (0)

jcr (53032) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052447)

She's not asking for special consideration, she's asking for the court to order the government to stop violating her human rights.

-jcr

NFC? (3, Informative)

chromas (1085949) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052397)

Student Refusing RFID Badge

refusal to wear any badge containing an RFID tag

school to adopt the NFC badges

One of these things is not like the other.

Re:NFC? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052567)

NFC traces its roots back to radio-frequency identification, or RFID.

School offered to let her wear a disabled ID (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052419)

The school letter says that they offered her the opportunity to wear an ID with the "battery and chip removed" on two occasions and she refused.

So this isn't about RFID, it's about wearing ID.

School is an exception (4, Insightful)

physicsphairy (720718) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052421)

Technological "invasion" of privacy is not a problem when it simply augments what is already in place physically, i.e., I have no problem with security cameras at a bank, because it is a public area which you enter with the expectation of it being fully monitored and guarded at all times, regardless of whether a camera system is installed. Adding a camera system does not fundamentally impact your expectation of privacy at a bank. I *do* have a problem with sticking cameras on every telephone poll in the city. I expect police to patrol the streets, and give periodic checkups on how things are going, but monitoring every nook and cranny simultaneously and being able to follow my movements camera-to-camera is a gross change and significant limiting of my normal expectation of privacy.

In this case, the girl is minor for whom the school is assuming responsibility during school hours and it is *expected* that they will be supervising her at all times. If teachers don't know where she is or what she is doing at any time during her stay that is indicative of negligence on their part, regardless of whether an RFID monitoring system is in place. So, as long as an uncovered and functional RFID tag is something she is only required to carry on school grounds, and she can put it in a foil sheath before and after, I do not have a big problem with the school adding some automation to what is already a comparable level of physical monitoring.

I'm not saying there aren't some slippery slopes to be vigilant against, but as it's been described, I don't think she is losing much if any privacy by using the school ID card.

Re:School is an exception (0)

jcr (53032) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052439)

Sorry, I'm not buying your excuse, here. If her parents required her to wear an RFID tag at all times, they'd be flaming assholes, too.

-jcr

The real tragedy here... (1, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052429)

...is that so many others complied.

Government schools have degenerated into starter-prisions.

-jcr

Just Overblown (4, Insightful)

phikapjames (811889) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052465)

After reading the article, I can't find any issues here that can really be raised for a minor in school, that the school is responsible for, that is essentially any different than the school id I had 20 years ago. In the article, it even states the school offered to remove the RFID functionality so that the picture / barcode was left. Even then, wtf, its RFID, not GPS. It's not going to track her location at home and even then, the school isn't telling her to never take it off outside of school hours.

Just more random thoughts:

1) Just like my id from 20 years ago, we had to scan in the mornings for school for attendance which actually made it more efficient for school admins to get a quick idea of who wasn't there and contact parents quickly. The other option is having teachers do it manually, typing into system, and wasting their time.

2) She's a minor that during school hours, the school is responsible for. More power if the school during those hours has a way to keep track of students on property (or lack of being on property) in a more secure way. I bet if for some reason she snuck off and something happened, these parents would be suing for neglecting to keep track of their kid during school hours.

3) If this is such a huge issue, why aren't people going bat shit crazy having to wear their work ids, which most have barcodes, pictures, and rfids these days. Really no difference here people. Wear to work / school, both track you entering and leaving, then that is it.

4) Their reasoning for religious is pure bs. My kid shouldn't wear a badge with the picture during school hours is the mark of the beast. Can you reach any harder for non sense. Again, lots of people for work do the same thing.

Does The System Connect To The 'Net? (2)

BlueStrat (756137) | about a year and a half ago | (#42052533)

This system very likely is networked with the entire school district so as to collect total attendance numbers for the district.

Considering the average level of network security that exists in most public school system IT departments (ie pwn-able by a savvy 12-yo), this looks like "Easy Internet Shopping For Pedophiles" as they can confirm their targets' location and schedule. And/or, they can snatch a kid, then just insert fake card-swipe data events to mimic the kid being at school and not chained to a wall somewhere. "Little Suzy has perfect school attendance, although nobody has seen her for months..."

Strat

Check out the 'source' (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052587)

Internet literacy has never been too high. Just check out the site out. (Infowars.com ... )

Paranoid student? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42052629)

Do they also not use cell phones or the internet?

Baffled.

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