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Studies Reveal Why Kids Get Bullied and Rejected

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the see-my-finger-see-my-thumb dept.

Science 938

Thelasko writes "I'm sure many here have been the victim of bullying at some point in their lives. A new study suggests why. '...now researchers have found at least three factors in a child's behavior that can lead to social rejection. The factors involve a child's inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from their pals.' The article sketches out some ways teachers and councilors are working with bullied kids to help them develop the missing social skills."

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I could have told you that. (5, Insightful)

Minwee (522556) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004282)

Why are kids bullied and rejected?

Because sometimes, other kids are dicks. Next question?

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004298)

Yeah, let's disregard all scientific studies and just ask this guy from now on.

Re:I could have told you that. (5, Funny)

XPeter (1429763) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004326)

Better yet, lets listen to an AC!

Re:I could have told you that. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004420)

Well the study seems to be saying fault lies with the victims of bullying. Imagine the study was a bit different and instead of blaming the victims of bullying it blamed a different sort of victim...

Studies Reveal Why Women Get Beaten and Raped

Women who get beaten and raped by men may be more likely to have problems in other parts of their lives, past studies have shown. And now researchers have found at least three factors in a woman's behavior that can lead to being violently abused.

The factors involve a woman's inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from men, as well as inability to listen and not knowing when to shut her mouth.

Re:I could have told you that. (5, Insightful)

j_w_d (114171) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004622)

Bullies are scum. No 'if onlies,' no 'buts.' There's no reason why a kid with difficulty understanding social cues should spend grade school making sure an upper grade bully got fat off his lunch money. No one 'makes' a bully steal your stuff, throw tarred rocks at you or generally lurk around for a chance to otherwise make your life miserable. All understanding the social cues offers is the knowledge of whom to avoid. There's a reason so many bullies go by handles like "Chopper," "Dumbo" and "Buddy" (all ones that I knew personally) and it isn't because they're brightest bulbs in the lamp. However, my dad always said 'don't get mad, get even.' I expect that Buddy never did understand why when he stole my home work he still got D's, and I still got A's.

Re:I could have told you that. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004712)

Some bullies are sociopaths [wikipedia.org] . Sociopaths are scum. Other bullies simply need a better social environment (including home environment).

And yes, all blame should fall squarely on the aggressor. It's a teaching mechanism. It should be nothing more, nor less.

Amusing story, though.

Re:I could have told you that. (5, Insightful)

Shadow of Eternity (795165) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004364)

Some people can't be bought, bargained or reasoned with. Some people enjoy the suffering of other people purely because of what it is and for no other deep reasons beyond that.

Some people, quite simply, are the monsters little children think are under the bed.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004384)

Some people can't be bought, bargained or reasoned with.

Yes, and they absolutely will not stop.

Help the victims (1)

microbox (704317) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004658)

Some people can't be bought, bargained or reasoned with

Some people are very good at working out who they can take advantage of. IMHO, teaching people to avoid being victims, and understanding why the victims are being picked is a *positive* step. I know this is slashdot and all, but isn't that what the article is about?

Re:Help the victims (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004672)

Well, the obvious solution is to unleash Chicago style hurt on the perpetrator but that's not terribly politically correct in this day and age.

Re:Help the victims (1)

Faerunner (1077423) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004762)

This is a great article if you know your kid has social issues anyway, but you can't teach all people to avoid being victims and even if you could someone, somewhere is going to be one. Whether through misplaced kindness toward the bully one day or through sheer chance ("You're here and you're smaller than me so you're gonna get beat up"), bullying will latch onto whatever hold it finds. You can't teach a kid to avoid the inevitable, and certainly enough smart, outgoing kids get bullied because of their interests, their parents or their good grades, regardless of social issues.

It's a great step to teach a socially inept kid how to be more socially aware, yes. It's no great leap toward solving bullying, though.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004728)

You got beat up a lot when you were a kid, didn't you?

Re:I could have told you that. (5, Funny)

Hojima (1228978) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004392)

Well it's a little more credible than the study. According to the scientists in this investigation, the bullies tend to be inbred or borderline retarded students that feel insecure about their low intelligence (which is incidentally correlated with having a small penis), and with such a lack of resolve, they will resort to using irrational violence against those who are smart. The scientists also note that 95% of these bullies go on to become flagrant homosexuals, the majority of them, in denial.

Re:I could have told you that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004522)

Posting to undo moderation. Took me a second, but I got your humor.

Re:I could have told you that. (0, Offtopic)

XPeter (1429763) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004316)


If only girls thought coding was cool...

Re:I could have told you that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004378)

And other kids are dicks because that's how you establish hierarchy. A lot of bullying is by lower-end youngsters terrified of becoming bottom themselves, and thus the main target.

I know I helped tease and terrify the most socially inept till about grade 5. After that I finally started to clue in and feel bad about it. (Which didn't stop the bullying of me by the total asshole kids headed for a future of jail - that didn't ease off till much later when I could take advanced courses they couldn't.)

Re:I could have told you that. (4, Insightful)

Le Marteau (206396) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004564)

> And other kids are dicks because that's how you establish hierarchy. A lot of bullying is by lower-end youngsters terrified of becoming bottom themselves, and thus the main target

Some people, young and old, play the role of what I like to call the "sheepdog". They can't stand it when someone does not behave in ways society expects.

For whatever reason, they look for those that stray from the herd, and give them a bark to get them back in line.

Non-conformists know exactly what I mean.

Re:I could have told you that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004412)

That's not what this study is implying.
On the other hand, this study doesn't match my observations either (or what I can remember of them).

Very rarely were people boolean yes/no rejects like the study implies. The problem is sociopaths, not the victim (FFS!)

Re:I could have told you that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004416)

Or... sociopaths get ostracized. The herd protects itself from wierdos.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

pitchpipe (708843) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004580)

Or... sociopaths get ostracized. The herd protects itself from wierdos.

Uhh... you wouldn't happen to be a bully would you? Something's telling me that you might just be one! :-D

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

Le Marteau (206396) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004642)

> Or... sociopaths get ostracized

That word does not mean what you think it means. Sociopaths are typically very charming.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

Idiomatick (976696) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004678)

geek != sociopath...... Like REALLY REALLY not.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

hendrikboom (1001110) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004458)

Yeah. Some kids are dicks. But what the article presumably explores is what it is about the victims that attracts those dicks?

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004492)

Simpsons already did it.

Re:I could have told you that. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004518)

Well, ordinarily I would answer "a vagina," but that can't be right.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

luther349 (645380) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004500)

this study is bs. some kids like myself late 80s mid 90s back when being computer smart = nerd would of course get me targeted by bully's.. not because i lacked any social factor but because rather then be a jock and fit in i kerned electronics.. of course a led pipe later the bully's knew not to mess with me.

Re:I could have told you that. (1, Interesting)

luther349 (645380) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004574)

trust me taking a few down gains you a rep on do not mess with. some new bully would come along and the old ones would warn him to stay away. the words where don't mess with that geek he has a attitude. trust me having a rep as geek with bad attitude was way better then the alternate. but i guess this study is for the kids not wiling to take a bully down a few pags.

Re:I could have told you that. (4, Insightful)

Millennium (2451) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004558)

This, more or less. Blaming the victim only keeps the cycle going.

Re:I could have told you that. (4, Insightful)

Gorobei (127755) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004748)

Yep, you can fix the bullying problem in a week by ending the "blaming the victim" mentality inherent in the people in charge.

The rule is really damn simple: you don't bully anyone. If you do, you get punished.

Good elementary school administrators do not tolerate bullying.
Good high-school administrators do not tolerate bullying.
Good college administrators do not tolerate bullying.
Good bosses at firms do not tolerate bullying.

If you want to suck as an administrator, go right ahead: you make the law, but pleased don't get too upset when we slash your tires and put sugar in your gas tank. You are making the rules and judging, we vote in the only ways we can vote in this situation.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

Korin43 (881732) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004760)

Seems like teaching victims how to help themselves is an important step though.

Re:I could have told you that. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004588)

That's not what the article just aid. The article just told you that the reason kids are bullied is because they have no social skills. It's not the bully's fault. It's the kid being bullied who is to blame. Alway's the victim's fault, apparently.

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

luther349 (645380) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004706)

bully s target anyone that they deem weak enough. social skills or simply being a little guy. many times there wrong and get themselves beat up but eventually they will find a victim and the bullying starts. do i blame the sheltered kid who probably will never have any real life skills because there parents tough them to be passive no matter what no. its still on the parents of that little monster bully that will probably die of a overdose in 10 years or be in jail. but to any young Slashdot readers that are bully victims rember theirs no disgrace in fighting dirty my whepion of choice was a led pipe just please no guns that's a cowards whepion.

Re:I could have told you that. (3, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004670)

But even dicks can be defused and deflected with a few social skills, a bit of verbal bantering, etc.

Most dicks want to be liked and respected but settle for being feared.

It is possible to deal this way with most bullys, but the skill set required is often something that won't be learned by the bulling target for a year or maybe two.

We keep kinds back (retain them in lower grades) for academic reasons, but seldom for social reasons. Often, I suspect, simply delaying entry into school for socially awkward kids might solve a lot of this. Either that or enroll overly aggressive kids a year ahead of time.

Age driven school enrollment is probably the root cause of much of the bully problem

Re:I could have told you that. (1)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004750)

Why are kids bullied and rejected?

Because sometimes, other kids are dicks. Next question?

Agreed although I'd like to add that part of the reason it continues is that authority figures generally turn a blind eye to it. It's harassment and it is treated in a completely different way than harassment between adults.

Join Now! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004306)

Aww, hell, join Slashdot and you can have friends just like you!!

Because being poor or "different"... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004308)

doesn't factor in at all!

Are they teaching the poor kids how to be rich?

Re:Because being poor or "different"... (2, Interesting)

HBoar (1642149) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004360)

Interesting -- at my school, the bullies were more likely to be the poorer kids, and the bullied were the rich kids. There were exceptions, of course, but the general trend was clear...

Context (3, Funny)

Chris Lawrence (1733598) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004318)

Interesting, but very the analysis lacks any cultural context. Is this really the fault (or failing) of the victims, or a consequence of the values and morals of our society and culture? The only way to answer that question is through a comparison to other cultures, past and present. The report seems to accept certain social behaviours as given or natural when perhaps they are only specific to our culture. I think more study is needed.

Re:Context (2, Interesting)

mikael (484) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004474)

If you something that other kids have that they don't, you will be bullied, like having two working parents, or hope for the future and the motivation to want to learn and go on to college or university.

There have been plenty of news reports of stories like this, and the victims are not simply those who are underweight/overweight, or with learning difficulties. There have reports of students being attacked (and even committing suicide) because they were successful in their work. Then the bullies would just pick on something. If it wasn't your height or weight, it would be the brand of your pens.

According to this article, it says the kids who are being bullied because they lack social skills. I would say it is because they are in an environment where they are being bullied, that they can't develop social skills.

Re:Context (2, Informative)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004544)

I think the simpsons was right, bullies can smell it.

Re:Context (2)

Chris Lawrence (1733598) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004566)

I think that's partly true. We also live in a culture that values conformity and cannot accept differences. We value physical strength over weakness, which I think was made clear by some of the other comments. We also have fairly strict ideas about gender, which can also tie into previous issue. But these are not universal truths or values, and children have grown up in other societies and cultures where these problems did not exist. So, the question has to go to a higher meta-level. Why does our culture create and promoting bullying, and why is that the case?

Re:Context (2, Interesting)

pitchpipe (708843) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004684)

I would say it is because they are in an environment where they are being bullied

You don't see that kind of shit in the workplace, at least not the in-your-face kind of thing: adults would never stand for it. It's weird how it is tolerated in a child's environment. "Boys will be boys" and such.

I was naturally a nerd and would've continued down that path happily into a career as a scientist, but I had to become "cool" to fit in. I know that I didn't really "have to" and that it was my choice, but I believe that an environment that was more conducive to the brighter students would have led a few more of us in that direction.

Obvious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004330)

So TFA says teach your kids not to be dicks. Well duh!

From the article: a summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004332)

I thought I read that the title of the article is about why kids gets bullied but all I can gleam from its content is what bullied kids do wrong to get bullied.

Re:From the article: a summary (2, Interesting)

keeboo (724305) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004668)

That was my impression too.

The article basically says: children with Asperger-like behavior are bullied (so it's their own fault).

In the real world, bullying and social isolation do not necessarily happen together. The article seems to present both as unseparable facts though.
The article fails to address other factors like: What about the bully kid? Why does he/she does that? How some bullies are able to form mobs? Why not all kids behave like bullies when in contact with such child?

Apparently it's too hard and boring to research properly on that subject so:
- Blame the bullied kid.
- Say he/she needs treatment.
- Push tons of pills in order to fix all his/her social problems.
- Profit.

I was bullied constantly until... (5, Interesting)

vudufixit (581911) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004336)

Years of pent-up anger boiled over. My high school tormentor was sitting across a cafeteria table from me. I decided right then and there,that I was going to strike back, as brutally and spectacularly as possible. I used the attached round stool as a launching pad and dove into him, knocking both of us to the ground. I rose immediately, punching him in the hard part of the side of the head - hard enough to indent my middle knuckle to the point that it's now level with the rest of the other knuckles. He was humiliated, I was vindicated (and suffered very mild punishment), and the BULLYING STOPPED FOR GOOD because the 1200+ other students in that school learned through the usual grapevine that I FOUGHT BACK.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004386)

Well... unfortunately for most of us, we were wimps, and the bullies were actually kind of tough.. albeit stupid.

I was bullied because I was at the bottom of the pecking order, plain and simple. Bullies would always find someone, and if I was just a little cooler, someone else would have been the victim.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (5, Insightful)

Idiomatick (976696) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004614)

Words of a coward :/

Fighting has little to NOTHING to do with who is tough/bigger/stronger. If you are remotely physically fit even if the guy is twice your size. You can win in a fight. Fights have EVERYTHING to do with who is willing to put it out there. If you can bite back the pain of a punch, even if you are smaller you can inflict damage back. And the one that wins is the one that is willing to continue. Bullies want to show dominance, they want to show how tough they are to others. But they rarely are willing to take an elbow to the throat for it.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (1)

gardyloo (512791) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004666)

Ah. So the ability to "bit back the pain" makes one right.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (2, Informative)

Le Marteau (206396) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004742)

Yes, as a matter of fact.

Refusing to fight back when it is called for is correctly termed 'cowardice' and is 'wrong'.

Dukeing it out, when required, and when proper, can be noble and yes, is 'right'.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (4, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004422)

First year in high school I was bullied, struck back, and then was labeled as a hot head. Every other hot head considered me one of them and assumed the only way to solve disagreements with me was with violence. It took a while to shake that.

Just a reminder that fighting back has its own consequences.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (3, Insightful)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004496)


I was never really bullied because i fought back early on, plus i'm a beefy guy to begin with so inspite of me being into computers no one bothered me. later in high school i put my skills to use making home brew, and i became very popular (suprise suprise).

I think the number one thing teachers and parents need to do is let kids fight their own damn battles. if jnr gets bullied, let him give the kid a black eye. it also gives the bully a taste of what will happen later in life if you insist on picking on people. all this passive agressive shit where your only allowed to express yourself according to someone elses rules is bullcrap.

I know if my kids were getting picked on at school i wouldn't sit down and tell them to care and share, i send them to boxing lessons and tell them to defend themselfs. people taking shit is the result of this passive nonsense people have been bred on for the last 20 years.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (1)

_merlin (160982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004512)

Yeah, I was bullied until I got strong enough (and psychotic enough) that people found out it was a bad idea to mess with me. I got in a lot of trouble for fighting back, though.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (2, Interesting)

Idiomatick (976696) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004552)

In my school my bully was doing the standard showing how tough/cool he was at lunch by making me get more drinks for the table (think Hogwarts style giant cafeteria) I got it last time so I told him to piss off. So he a little pissed that I didn't submit flipped my plate onto my lap saying 'oops' and laughing it up with his friends/lackeys. So I got up steaming as he continued to make fun of me. Grabbed his fingers and twisted his arm behind his back and slammed his face into the table as hard as I could. It was really loud... in a room with about 800 people in it silencing to only him whimpering and me telling him to fuck off. It felt empowering afterward but at the time I was too terrified horrified and enraged to notice. Suffice to say my outburst nearly got me expelled mid term, while his tormenting other students was never punished (he used to be pretty bad to other students). And it was completely worth it. It is good to know that you won't bend over and take abuse, good to know that you are in control and don't have to take people's shit.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004612)

Same thing, except I kept slamming, and broke his nose and cheekbone. And was eventually arrested and charged. But damn, it was worth it.

not that it is bad that you stood up for yourself (1, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004732)

but i take exception with a phrase in your last sentence

"good to know that you are in control"

your actions do not sound like someone in control. in fact, you were out of control. you say so yourself

"It felt empowering afterward but at the time I was too terrified horrified and enraged to notice"

again i'm glad you stood up for yourself, but recognize that this temporary rage of yours was not really a good thing to be driven to. absolutely necessary, yes, but not good. not everything we are driven and compelled to do in this life are good actions we should be happy happened. not that i see you taking joy in the event, but there are others out there who might have enjoyed it

as an allegory, it is entirely appropriate and reasonable to kill someone entering your house in the dead of night: you have no idea what his intentions are, and they're obviously not good. however, a truly moral person takes no sense of joy in the unfortunately necessary action, only sadness

when you take pleasure in the infliction of pain on others, no matter the context or scenario, you begin to become the bully you are fighting

i'm not saying you took such joy, but i'm merely using your scenario as a way to jump off and make a deeper point here

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (1)

FShort (91112) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004628)

Amen - similar story here. I came to realize early on that the "bully" act was mostly false bravado. The majority of them are really pussies.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (2, Interesting)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004694)

That didn't stop it for me. One kid made fun of me so much I couldn't take it anymore. So I grabbed his hand, pulled him towards me and executed a perfect clothesline, knocking him to the ground. (I was a fan of wrestling at the time. It may be fake, but those moves - if properly pulled off - can hurt.)

The next group of kids who made fun of me were... well, a group of kids. If I passed one of them in the hall, they wouldn't say anything, however if two or more of them were there, they'd tease me. They'd follow me from class to class taunting me. If I tried losing them, they'd keep up and taunt me more for trying to lose them. They'd also block my entrance into my classes. (Classes that they weren't in.) One time, while trying to push my way through, I saw red. And I don't mean that as a metaphor. The world literally took on a red hue and I was about to go for the throat of the nearest kid when my teacher arrived and drove them away. If it wasn't for his arrival, I think things would have turned very ugly, very fast. I might have even done some permanent damage to the kid.

The constant taunting took its toll on me. Even bus rides without those kids was torture. Kids would be laughing in the back completely unrelated to me, but I was convinced that it was directed at me. Luckily, a friend of mine was on good terms with these kids, told them of how it was really hurting me, and they backed off. To them, it was all in good fun. It didn't even occur to them that their constant taunting, every single school day for years, would have any effect. It took me half of college to get over the mental damage that was done, though.

Re:I was bullied constantly until... (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004764)

So you're claiming you punched him hard enough to break your hand, but you describe it as pushing the knuckle back ... sorry, not buying it. You'd have known it was broken when the pain didn't go away and had described it as such.

Interestingly enough, I think my dad told me that exact same story after getting bullied myself.

Just don't go to far.. (2, Insightful)

Anrego (830717) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004352)

It really is an under-addressed public health issue

I really hope they don't _over_ address it (WAIT! this is a serious comment!).

I'm really glad to see them taking a "help the kids function in the real world" vice the traditional "turn schools into a happy fantasy world" approach.

At the same time, learning to deal with these kind of challenges on your own is important. Obviously there are lots of cases where things get out of hand, and as the article describes, kids grow up with all sorts of problems as a result.

I think the assumption here is that you are giving the kid a push in the right direction.. rather than hand holding.. which might work. When you start doing the latter.. I think you just serve to isolate the kid more (classic example.. when a teacher essentially forces a group to include someone).

Most kids are so desperate to have friends, they just jump on board

Personally I think this hints at the root of the problem... self esteem.

It's cliche.. but "just be yourself" works. If you're a geek.. be a geek.. you'll fit in somewhere.

Re:Just don't go to far.. (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004462)

The real-world answer is to learn that social skills are a rewarding game even if you really would rather beat the asshole you are manipulating until his brains run out his ears. :)

Learn how people work, not as you would have them work, but how to guide their behaviors without them knowing you are doing it. Get better and better at it, it's great fun and the best revenge. Don't isolate yourself, but thoughtfully engage and learn the games all humans play.

Re:Just don't go to far.. (1)

Penguinshit (591885) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004736)

My revenge was earning more than my tormentors at a career I love which provided me a lifestyle more satisfying than I had imagined.

at a reunion a few years ago almost every one of them was overweight, bitching about their jobs. Many were suffering divorce or on the verge of it.

It was like the movie Grosse Point Blank without the body count.

From the Article (4, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004358)

"The number one need of any human is to be liked by other humans"

Admit it.

Re:From the Article (2)

ArmagedionTime (1647309) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004426)

"The number one need of any human is to be liked by other humans"

Admit it.

It could be argued that antisocial behavior ignores this statement, since actions aimed against other humans are less likely to lead to acceptance. In some cases, an antisocial act might lead to acceptance, such as performing a drive by to join a game. But in other cases, such as a loner, there is no apparent desire for social acceptance.

Re:From the Article (2, Funny)

Volguus Zildrohar (1618657) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004674)

such as performing a drive by to join a game

Fuck, your childhood sounds like it was pretty brutal. How many did you have to kill to join a local sports team?

Re:From the Article (1)

blackraven14250 (902843) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004734)

Dude, imagine what it took to get into the friday night D&D game!

Re:From the Article (4, Funny)

wisnoskij (1206448) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004498)

I think the number one need of any human might actually be air.

Re:From the Article (3, Informative)

Ironchew (1069966) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004634)

Indeed it is. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs [wikipedia.org] , belonging is prioritized below physiological needs and safety.

Re:From the Article (2, Funny)

Xeno man (1614779) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004530)

"The number one need of any human is to be liked by other humans"

Admit it.

I don't care if girls like me, I just want them to touch my penis.

Re:From the Article (1)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004540)

"The number one need of any human is to be liked by other humans"

Yes, but it matters remarkably little which other humans.

The problem with the public education environment is for all their talk of embracing diversity, it's a veritable meat-grinder for individuality. A person that is unable to mask his/her differences from their peers is subject to incredible negative pressure. This is why we need to stop reducing public education to "lowest common denominator" thinking -- "No Child Left Behind" and its derivatives have resulted in a generation of kids that believe either they are all beautiful and unique snowflakes, or they're interchangable carbon-copies of each other. Neither is beneficial to the larger society. We need to identify people's differing learning styles and personalities and pair them with others that share them and teachers that can leverage it effectively. What I'm proposing is, in fact, the anti-thesis of public education: Individualized education.

I got lucky (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004366)

I was a really awkward, geeky kid. If I were anyone else, I would have probably gotten my ass repeatedly kicked. Luckily, up until 11th grade, I was by far the biggest kid in the class. 5'7" by fifth grade (although I didn't get any taller), 170 lbs by 9th grade with a 36 inch waist, and 205 lbs by 12th grade with a 38 inch waist. I certainly had some squish on me, but as you can tell by my waist size, I was certainly not a fatty.

I wasn't the tallest, but I was the most imposing. The best part? Never been in a fight my entire life.

What? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004374)

What kind of bologna is this? Talk about blaming the victim.

They'd have been better off spending those research dollars trying to figure out how to properly socialize the goddamned bullies, not their victims ... who are often intelligent, sensitive individuals not in need of "socialization".

Senator Proxmire, where are you when we need you.

Re:What? (1)

jc42 (318812) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004478)

They'd have been better off spending those research dollars trying to figure out how to properly socialize the goddamned bullies, not their victims ...

Nah; they'd already figured out that most of the bullies are psychopaths that can't be socialized. So they switched to studying how their victims could be taught to survive.

(Only 1/2 ;-)

Re:What? (1)

Jason Levine (196982) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004740)

I'd agree with you with one minor modification: Sometimes the victims of bullying do need any help with socialization, but most times that's because the bullies reduce the possibility that the victim will socialize at all.

That's how it was for me. In every social situation, the fear of being made fun of/bullied was so great, I'd back myself up against the wall and work to be as invisible as possible. I even tried to walk as quietly as possible lest I be noticed because being noticed meant being made fun of (in my High School mind).

So which came first? Cause and effect. (1)

Puff_Of_Hot_Air (995689) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004410)

The article itself states that social rejection "leads to a vicious cycle". The rejection means that social skills cannot be practised, and lower social skills leads to rejection. Couldn't this imply that bullying _causes_ poor social skills? I agree with Minwee, sometimes other kids are just dicks. Once a child is on the 'outer', it is very difficult for them to get back into the mainstream. I have personally experienced periods of social isolation in my childhood (due to moving around), and can definitly attest that this lead to difficulty in interacting with others. In my case, I 'forgot' the various social cues. Once I had friends again, the skills returned, but it is very difficult to make those friends when all your social skills are retarded.

I smell a new med on the way... (1)

squiggly12 (1298191) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004428)

I can just see it now, from one of the major pharma companies.
Is your kid being bullied? Stopadabully TM is here now! Consult your physician if this medication is correct for your child. Side effects include: turning into the Hulk, mass projectile vomiting and killing parents.

Now I would have linked to a story where a 13 year old kid killed his parents over chores, but I just couldn't do it.

Asking for it (3, Insightful)

serps (517783) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004452)

Wow, that article really has a 'blame the victim' mentality, with the coda "and here's why".

The article even ends with the appeasement of "what can you change about the way you act to avoid being bullied"

Just like Battered Wife Syndrome, bullying is something that, ultimately, is the fault of the aggressor. Appeasement is not the solution.

Let me translate (2, Insightful)

deglr6328 (150198) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004456)

Let me translate the article for you so you don't have to waste time on its bullshit: bullied kids are responsible for their own torment and it's really their job to stop it from happening. --> F-you Clark McKown. Right in the ear.

Finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004460)

Well what do you know? Finally a news article that the readership of this site can identify with!

sure, its the victim's fault (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004464)

Look kid, you're different. Want to make friends, and by that I mean save your ass getting kicked? Easy - suck up to, and agree with what at least 51% of the rest of the class does.

The future of IT in peril! (0)

anti-NAT (709310) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004472)

Bullied kids are the embryos of IT profession. For the future of the industry, we need kids to retreat to their parent's basements and get good at computering. Who's going to run the Internet in the future? Who's going to endlessly debate Macs verses PCs? Who's going to "meep"? Who's going to "grok"?

Who's going to visit Slashdot?

Awesome, Blame the victim (4, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004488)

In other news,

Studies Reveal Why People Get Beaten and Mugged
The factors involve a persons inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from muggers.

Studies Reveal Why People Get Prison Raped
The factors involve a persons inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from rapists.

Studies Reveal Why People Get Prison Murdered
The factors involve a persons inability to pick up on and respond to nonverbal cues from murderers.

Re:Awesome, Blame the victim (1)

Livius (318358) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004718)

Yes, because the victim of bullying is the one with "missing social skills".

The Comments are Really Interesting (1, Insightful)

mosb1000 (710161) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004502)

So many people are out there saying "no, it's not the victim's fault, don't blame the victim" but they miss the entire point. People have always tried to end bullying by punishing the bullies, but it has never been an effective way to solve the problem. If anything, it just makes the bully more likely to be abusive. This article is discussing why some are bullied and rejected while others aren't. And it goes to the heart of what can be done, which is teaching social skills. The punishment system doesn't work.

Re:The Comments are Really Interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004640)

And it goes to the heart of what can be done, which is teaching social skills.

On one side you have a person that's quiet, keeps to themselves, and is a bit weird.

On the other side you have a kid that starts fights, terrorizes everybody, and is loud.

Which one of these suffers from a lack of social skills?

Except that it does. (1)

tjstork (137384) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004688)

. The punishment system doesn't work.

When I was in 9th grade I got bullied a lot. I have to admit, a lot of it was because I was a dick. Our high schools overriding principal was that everyone should be socialized and honestly, I was just coming down with a depression that lasts to this day, didn't know how to deal with it, and I just wanted to get in there, do my work, and get out, and be left utterly alone.

Still, there were jokers always trying to get me.

There was this one guy who was always pushing me around and trying to take my lunch money and other stuff. So, I bought a pretzel and stuffed it full of razor blades and gave it to him. He got it, discovered that I tried to kill him, and reported me to the principal, saying that he was only playing around. I said, well, I wasn't. Needless to say, he could have kicked my ass but the whole thing was so weird to him that he never even spoke to me again. Excellent.

Another time, some kid poured a bunch of stuff on my drawing paper in art class. So, I dumped a bunch of soap into his eyes and burned him up. He later jumped me in the bathroom and tried to flush my head, so I strangled him and bashed his head into the wall as hard as I could. He never bothered me again. Excellent.

Finally, a lot of other people picked on me for a whole bunch of random reasons, so I got pissed off and set out to kill everyone in the entire high school. I figured I would glue the doors shut with epoxy and then model rocket the place with a sort of a home brew napalm and burn everybody alive. I got caught, and luckily this was pre-columbine so not much really happened and I was able to worm my way out of the whole thing, but you know what, word got around, I took some crap, but, really, nobody ever bothered me again.

Bottom line is, if someone is picking on you, if you fuck them up, they will probably not fuck with you again.

Parent is not a troll (0, Offtopic)

Puff_Of_Hot_Air (995689) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004716)

c'mon mods, the parent is a expressing a different view point. This does not make him/her a troll. I happen to at least agree that teaching 'outed' kids social skills is at least one arm of a solution. Seriously, troll is not a replacement for "I don't like your opinion"

Hmm... (1)

FShort (91112) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004508)

Nothing a little retaliatory violence cant correct.

I see (4, Insightful)

pydev (1683904) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004528)

<sarcasm>Who would have guessed? Those poor bullies are really the victims of the kids they beat up, because the kids being beaten up are practically asking the bullies to commit violence against them. I mean, obviously, if anybody doesn't want to conform to social norms or has interests other than those that the popular kids have, they are abnormal and hence need to be cured!</sarcasm>

fags (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004546)

fags get bullied because they're little useless sacks of dog shit.

Re:fags (1)

FShort (91112) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004570)

And they also post as AC's too.

fun way to read the article... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004578)

Read the article with "rape" in place of "bully"...makes it very interesting

Good money to be made (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004584)

There have been a rash of suicides recently attributed to schoolyard bullying. You can bet the parents of these children will be suing the living daylights out of the bully's parents, the school administrators, and anyone else involved. The blame-the-victim asshats behind this article will have no problem finding work as "expert" witnesses for the defense.

Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004600)

It took a study to see that the reason kids get picked on is because they stick out or dont pay attention? Well this should go for adults as well, i'm sure we all work with or are people that fall into these categories..

serious, serious issue (1)

Onymous Coward (97719) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004644)

Bullying is a big deal. Of course it's simplistic to say that it is caused entirely by any one factor, but I think Lavoie's 5 steps to help develop social skill are great for addressing part of the overall equation.

If you want to understanding bullying in more detail, however, you can read this article: Big Bad Bully [psychologytoday.com] . I highly recommend it.

Because they can be bullied (2, Interesting)

at_slashdot (674436) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004690)

Bullies don't have initially preferred targets, I bet they try to bully everybody, but they continue with people who don't fight back or don't know how to protect themselves, what are the chances that those people are the shy ones, the ones that don't get social clues, the ones that are a bit slower? Do we need a study for that?

ANOREXIC ANDY (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004708)


"There's a lot of hate around here."

-Gentry Robler, Santana High sophomore

The Santee rage massacre took place less than two years after Columbine, and this time, thanks in part to the pathetic figure of Andy Williams, people started to seriously consider the role bullying might have played. But there was resistance.

In the immediate aftermath, Santana High School officials and local law enforcement officials either denied growing reports that he was a victim of bullying, or else they argued that even if he had been bullied it had nothing to do with the shooting.

Andy's appointed lawyer, Deputy Public Defender Randy Mize (his father could not afford to hire a private attorney), listed eighteen incidents of bullying just in the weeks leading up to the shooting, including "burned with cigarette lighter on his neck every couple of weeks," "sprayed with hair spray and then lit with a lighter," "beat with a towel that caused welts by bullies at the pool," and "slammed against a tree twice because of rumors." These "rumors" of course were rumors of the sexual orientation sort, the most devastating of all bombs you can drop on a newcomer kid who is incapable of defending himself. Jeff Williams, Andy's father, later said, "Some of the stuff basically borders on torture."

As Andy quickly learned, Santana High's culture combined the lethal cruelty of coastal California suburbia with familiar, rural trailer park hazing. He wanted out. He visited his mother in South Carolina a few months before his attack, and hoped to move back with her. When he visited old school friends in rural Maryland on that same trip, he told them that kids at his high school regularly egged his father's apartment or stole his homework and threw it into garbage bins. They called him "faggot" and "bitch" and "gay" and taunted him for not fighting back when he was bullied. Worst of all, much of the abuse came from the neighborhood "friends" he hung out with, got stoned with (he turned stoner to try to earn acceptance), and from whom he tried and failed to learn to become a skate rat.

Some were students at the high school, some weren't. Andy's decision to hang out with students from another school, which suburban kids don't often do, in spite of the fact that these "friends" abused him at least as much as the Santana High "friends," says a lot about the choices he faced. If Andy could have learned to skate, he might have been accepted by a second-tier clique in the coastal California public school hierarchy. As it was, not only did he never live up to the skate rat standards on the ramp, but to punish him for being a dork, his skateboard was stolen on at least two occasions by his friends, who then taunted him for being too much of a fag to protect his board.

In spite of their relentless taunting, Andy joined them at the local skate park, where they got buzzed on liquor and weed, skated on the ramps (he just watched), and tormented Andy Williams.

"His ears stuck out, he was small, skinny, had a high voice, so people always picked on him 'cause he was the little kid," said Scott Bryan, a friend of Williams.

He earned the nickname "Anorexic Andy."

"He was picked on all the time," student Jessica Moore said. "He was picked on because he was one of the scrawniest guys. People called him freak, dork, nerd, stuff like that."

Laura Kennamer, a friend, said, "They'd walk up to him and sock him in the face for no reason. He wouldn't do anything about it."

Anorexic Andy: before puberty...

Even Andy's fifty-nine-year-old, neighbor Jim Crider, observed, "Williams looked like someone working hard to fit in with his peers-and not quite succeeding. His clothes did not match what the other kids were wearing. When he talked, others didn't always pay attention."

Anthony Schneider, who was fifteen when the Santee shootings happened, both confirmed Crider's observation and gave a small glimpse into the dumb, cool poison of this schoolyard culture there: "He didn't have that many friends. A lot of people picked on him. He was kind of a weirdo . . . He didn't talk that much. He just kept to himself. . . . One of my friends stole his skateboard [about a month ago]."

Schneider's flat braggadocio about his friend who stole Andy's skateboard is a familiar cool tag for anyone who has experienced life in the suburban California school culture. I would have thought that his type had evolved by now-but no, like jellyfish, it turns out they're the same as they always were.

While visiting friends in Maryland a few months earlier, Andy was videotaped softly telling the camera, "My school is horrible. I hate it there." That was the same trip where he asked his mother to let him move in with her in South Carolina, anything to escape Santee.

On February 8, a few weeks before his shooting spree, one of Andy's best friends from Twentynine Palms, a boy described as a shy outsider suffering from muscular dystrophy whom Andy had essentially rescued from the lower rungs of twerpdom, was hit by a bus and killed. Andy was devastated by the news, though he never expressed his grief until after he was jailed. He couldn't show pain in the coastal suburbs, especially not over some dweeb who was a gimp.

So this was how the best years of Andy Williams's life began-in the words of his father, "border[ing] on torture." He was beaten up, taunted, set on fire, regularly burned with a cigarette lighter, had his skateboard repeatedly stolen, and his shoes pulled from his feet. He was taunted for being a fag, taunted for being taunted, and taunted for not fighting back, which only weakened his will and confidence more . . . and yet he was the weirdo in the eyes of the normal students. ...and after, how huge and in for life.

And he was only halfway through his freshman year.

His own explanation for why he shot at his fellow students was simple yet honest: "I was trying to prove a point." Word for word, this is the same reason Brian Uyesugi gave to Hawaiian police after his shooting spree in the Xerox office which left seven dead.

Prosecutor Kristin Anton told the San Diego Union-Tribune that authorities had failed to uncover any evidence that Andy Williams was the victim of a bullying campaign. "We've talked to hundreds of people . . . and frankly there isn't evidence to support this bullying theory," she said. Evidence that Andy's neighborhood "friends" had brutalized him was dismissed by Anton: "[T]hey did it in a way that they'd laugh about it and continue to associate with each other."

District Superintendent Granger Ward also denied that Williams's shooting was sparked by bullying, in remarks reported in the Union-Tribune: "Based on the district's own review last year and information from the District Attorney's Office, there is no evidence that Williams was bullied at school." Ward characterized Andy Williams's shooting as a criminal act by someone who brought a gun to campus and shot students and staffers. By shifting all of the blame away from the vicious school culture and onto the evil psychology of Andy Williams, Ward was essentially indemnifying himself. "It is unfortunate that the perpetrator of this crime is not the focus, and that's where the focus should be," he told reporters.

What was really unfortunate for Ward were subsequent media expos_s which revealed that his school knew a lot more about the bullying problem than they had let on, and they had bungled and wasted a perfect opportunity to change the school's culture. In 1999, almost two years before the shooting, the U.S. Justice Department gave Santana High's school district a $137,000 grant to study the causes and effects of school bullying in partnership with the local Sheriff 's office. The district could have chosen to give that grant money to any of its schools, but it chose Santana High. Why? The school later denied that the grant was given specifically to Santana High because it was a particularly cruel school beset by rampant bullying-they said that Santana was chosen essentially at random.

Almost all the grant money intended to study Santana High's bullying problem went instead to dubiously-related projects, like purchasing computer equipment and software for the police, including $3,400 for a computer image projector and $4,600 for mapping software. Money was also spent hiring "consultants" who were ineffective and generally ignored. As the Union-Tribune noted, "[P]articipants said a computer system to track juveniles wasn't used as planned, people received training they never used and little study was done of frequent bullies and victims." One "consultant," Nancy McGee, was paid twenty-five dollars an hour for organizing such bullying-reduction activities as the annual Peace Week, which included a school peace march and sensitivity training seminars, as well as a field trip for 75 students to the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles.

There were accusations that the money was wasted. As one parent, who was trained with six hundred dollars of grant money to act as a mediator, said, "I left there thinking, 'OK, we're going to do something with this.'" The parent was never called again.

After Andy Williams's shooting spree, the school had used some non-earmarked grant funds to bring in a bullying expert from Clemson University, Sue Limber. She interviewed students, parents, and teachers, and drafted her recommendations on how to change the school culture. The school board rejected her recommendations, charging that they did not apply to Santana's circumstances.

Remarkably, after three years and $137,000 in grant money, almost no actual interviews were conducted with bullies or bullied students in order to understand them better, no analysis was ever produced, and no recommendations ever forwarded.

However, a more general survey of Santana High students and parents was conducted, and it yielded interesting results about the extent to which bullying was an integral part of the school's culture.

Roughly one-third of the school's 1,200 students surveyed said that they had been bullied, and nearly half said that they retaliated in some way. About one in five students were repeat victims of bullying, more often girls than boys. About 11 percent said they had brought a weapon to campus, and of those, a third said they brought the weapon for protection, while a tenth said they brought the weapon in order to intimidate. Most students-and even most parents-said that they did not tell school officials about bullying because they didn't think it would help.

Remarkably, in spite of this perceived violence and threat of violence, and the lack of protection, only 7 percent of these same students said they felt unsafe at the school, and roughly the same percentage of parents felt that the school was unsafe for their kids. In other words, this prison yard culture in a white middle-American school was seen as normal by most people. And the principal and superintendent had this information two years before Andy Williams's shooting.

Their reading of the situation was right: it was normal. A national survey on bullying conducted by the Kaiser Family Foundation and Nickelodeon in mid-2001 showed that nearly one-third of all sixth through tenth-graders nationwide were either bullies or targets of bullying. Seventy-four percent of eight to eleven-yearolds say teasing and bullying occur at their school, while for the twelve to fifteenyear- olds, the number rises to 86 percent. And both age groups called the teasing and bullying "big problems" that rank higher than racism, AIDS, and the pressure to have sex or to try alcohol or drugs.

Time and again, students and parents complain of the devastating effects of bullying and their inability to stop it, no matter where they live. As one man in upper-middle-class suburban Iowa, whose son was savaged by local kids for being a "fag," said, "My son does not say if he's gay or not, but he is afraid to ride his bike, or even be out in the neighborhood alone. Our neighborhood has homes valued at $200,000 to $300,000 and he does not feel safe."

One reason why our society has failed to curb bullying is that we like bullies. Hell, we are bullies. Research has shown that bullies are not the anti-social misfits that adults, in their forced amnesia, want them to be. Rather, bullies are usually the most popular boys, second only on the clique-ranking to those described as friendly, outgoing, and self-confident. The Santana High kids and parents both felt that there was no point in complaining to the administration because they wouldn't have done anything anyway, a reflection of the fact that popular winners are treated better than losers. At Columbine, parents and students both felt that bullies were favored by teachers and administrators, and that complainers were often ignored or blamed. Indeed, losers pay for being losers twice over in our schools, taking both the punishment and the blame. Many kids (and adults) believe that victims of bullying bring it upon themselves; studies show how kids will often egg bullies on against their victims, in part to curry the bully's favor, in part to distinguish themselves from the victim class.

As we scratch the surface of this phenomenon, we start to see how miserable the school experience is for a great number of kids-white, middle-class, middle- American kids. It's a misery built into the modern school culture. In fact, it is so obvious, and so common, that only a kind of adult amnesia, combined with powerful cultural propaganda, could edit away such a widely-held bad memory.

That said, Andy Williams did manage to spark a significant shift in the culture, a mini-cultural revolution. If someone were to stand up in 2005 and argue, on television, that bullying is "not a big deal" today, they would be the weirdo, the one who would cause people to roll their eyes.

It is exactly this kind of transformation, of what is considered "normal," that is at the heart of this book. In a matter of a few years, the concept of bullying had gone from being considered "culturally normative" and part of reality, to being recognized as intolerable and lethal. ...Was Andy Williams's uprising a success or a failure? His shooting did help change the discourse, and legislation. He found enormous sympathy and sparked uprisings around the country. In that sense, it was a success. But is bullying really the fundamental problem? Laws were enacted in early America to mitigate cruelty towards slaves-but slavery still continued in a refined form.

For Andy Williams personally, the rebellion was a cruel failure. In the months after he was arrested, Andy hit puberty. Within a year, he went from being "Anorexic Andy" to a six-foot-three hulk, as stocky as a defensive lineman. Such a build would have changed his life at Santana High if he had held out another year.

The only place where being a six-foot-three sixteen-year-old didn't help was where he was stuck. As Andy told an ABC Primetime Thursday interviewer, in his prison there are "five thousand bullies in one place."

"I don't really have a criminal background. I'm not really like a mean, like, hard-hearted guy. So I don't think I'm going to make it in prison. It's a tough place."

He was sentenced to fifty years to life. He will be eligible for parole when he turns sixty five.

Gives me a flashback (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31004724)

It reminds me of after there were several school shootings in a row they decided the best course of action was to go after the kids being bullied. Part of the problem I always found was the "bullies" are often popular kids or jocks and the schools won't touch them. It's just easier politically to go after the victims.

Let's blame the victim! (4, Insightful)

lanner (107308) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004746)

Uh, it's pretty clear to me that there is an overtone in this article that it's victim's fault that they are not well liked or have social problems.

While I accept that this may be true in some cases, and a contributing factor in many instances, it's shocking and abhorrent to me that someone might suggest that it's the victim's fault that they get physically assaulted, mentally abused, pressured to do drugs, etc.

The common attribute to bullying is bullies. They are the source of the problem (as often a single link in a chain of abuse) and it would be wise to focus on identifying, exposing, and properly reacting to their abusive behavior against others.

I don't want to attack the entire study based on my perception of this article, and I'll support that having poor social skills can contribute to the likelihood of being a bully victim, but WTF?

So its the victim's fault then? (1)

Spicerun (551375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31004752)

Gee, another article declaring that the victim has to be the one to get help to change their behavior, while the Bullies just continue on their way untouched. Don't know about you, but I'm getting really tired of the victims being cited as the root of the problems here.
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