Fingerprint Test Tells Much More Than Identity 166
Mike sends in the story of a new fingerprint technology with interesting potential for both crime detection and rights violations; there are also intriguing possibilities in fighting cancer. "Using a variation of mass spectrometry called 'desorption electrospray ionization' or 'Desi,' a fingerprint can identify what the person has been touching — drugs, explosives, or poisons, for example. Writing in the Friday issue of the journal Science, R. Graham Cooks, a professor of chemistry at Purdue University, and his colleagues describe how the technique could find a wider application in crime investigations. As it becomes cheaper and more widely available, the Desi technology has potential ethical implications, Cooks said. Instead of drug tests, a company could surreptitiously check for illegal drug use of its employees by analyzing computer keyboards after the employees have gone home, for instance."
Privacy (Score:5, Interesting)
Instead of drug tests, a company could surreptitiously check for illegal drug use of its employees by analyzing computer keyboards after the employees have gone home, for instance.
What would the company do after 75% of its keyboards test hot for dope? I don't think that any company(other than the military or any other organization which has to do with national security) is stupid enough to scare away much of their workforce.
Sure, most companies have pre-employment drug testing, but that's mainly about image -- If you're too fiendish to quit long enough for the drugs to leave your system or if you're not savvy enough to use a clean-test kit(I endorse Detoxify brand drinks ^_^) then you're undesireable for employment. Remember, in the U.S. Marijuana is still illegal and is a schedule I substance which officially has "a high potential for abuse" and "no accepted medical use" and is "lacking safety for use under medical supervision".
This type of test should only be used to solve crimes and diagnose illnesses -- not to invade privacy. Imagine your insurance rates going through the roof because the form you signed had traces of tobacco and who-knows-what-else. Surprise!
Re:Privacy (Score:5, Funny)
A few dabs on your fingertips should hold back any substances while you bang away on the keyboard at work. Of course your employer may wonder why you have no fingerprints.
Re:Privacy (Score:5, Funny)
Nah they can test all they want, find the dope and I'll be all like "OMGWTF what is marijuana? I have NEVER even seen it let alone touched it. Someone must of sabatoged my desk." Then everyday before work I would sprinkle a little crystal on the coffee pot handle.
Re:Privacy (Score:5, Insightful)
Then everyday before work I would sprinkle a little crystal on the coffee pot handle.
I think you over estimate the amount of drug needed to be found for any sort of conclusive judgment on the employee. The fact that most, if not all, keyboards would have some undesirable substance on 'em. And that is similar to the problem they have with current drug tests and the solution, there is a cut off limit which assumes some degree of inaccuracy in the test and prescribes a limit of substance found to ensure its above and beyond what could be considered reasonable when the amount of inaccuracy of any given test is considered.
Just to throw it out there I blame a weak American populace for rolling over and allowing the establishment of the drug testing industry. As the most obvious flaw is with marijuana as it can stay in your system for a month or more under the right circumstances. While even heavy users of very heavy drugs have a 3-4 day turn around before they are clean... AT MOST. That includes methamphetamine, cocaine, hydrocodone and alcohol.
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As the most obvious flaw is with marijuana as it can stay in your system for a month or more under the right circumstances..
3 months actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test#Hair_drug_testing [wikipedia.org]
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Come on now, I only look at tubgirl at home.
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Director Josef: You keep your work station so clean, Jerome.
Vincent: It's next to godliness. Isn't that what they say?
Director Josef: Godliness. I reviewed your flight plan. Not one error in a million keystrokes. Phenomenal. It's right that someone like you is taking us to Titan.
Vincent: Has the committee approved the mission? There's been talk of delay.
Director Josef: You shouldn't listen to talk. You leave in a week. You've got a substance test.
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While reading this I was thinking about the scene where Vincent vacuums his keyboard...
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Everybody trade keyboards every morning.
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Do "most" places really do that in the US?
It's really unusual here in the UK. I could see it being slipped in under the radar without too many people making a fuss - it only affects druggies right! - but I've yet to take a test.
not that it would be positive, anyway.
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The only drug tests I've had to undergo in the US were for financial institutions. Usually these places put a fair bit more scrutiny on new hires than normal. I can't really speak about how common it is in general.
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The only drug tests I've had to undergo in the US were for financial institutions.
I would say 9 out of every 10 jobs, that pay 40k or less institute at least a drug test upon the conditional offer of employment. However my experience in the job markets are limited to the Pacific Northwest region of the United States.
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I would say 9 out of every 10 jobs, that pay 40k or less institute at least a drug test upon the conditional offer of employment.
And roughly 0% of the jobs that pay over $100k require drug tests. If they did, where would employers find anyone that they could hire?
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Typically the smaller co's I've worked for have no drug testing policy.
One, I found out why they did not have a drug policy - it's because many of the people there used, and it wasn't a secret.
Re:Privacy (Score:4, Interesting)
When I was working for Hughes in 1992 a memo circulated announcing their new random screening policy. Immediately one of my cow orkers headed straight for the cafeteria and bought five lemon poppy seed muffins. I found him sitting in the dining area, pounding his muffins, and said "Dude, what's with the muffins?"
He said he just wanted to yield a positive on their testing and make it as expensive as possible for them. Especially if they terminated him.
The expression on my face said, "Riiiiight..."
The use is exaggerated. Investors wanted? (Score:3, Interesting)
Those who were especially careful would wear gloves when they handled an unusual substance.
That kind of exaggeration of the benefits of some new science is common now. Maybe Griffin Analytical Technologies [insideindi...siness.com] is looking for investors. Maybe i
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That's assuming people are smart.
*psssssssshhhhhhh*
And that's the sound of your argument being invalidated ;)
MANY people would be caught with these techniques, simply because practices like that are difficult to do properly all the time.
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What would the company do after 75% of its keyboards test hot for dope?
I guess they'd fire the stoner IT guy.
Even crimes solving is out-of-question. (Score:2)
This type of test should only be used to solve crimes and diagnose illnesses -- not to invade privacy. Imagine your insurance rates going through the roof because the form you signed had traces of tobacco and who-knows-what-else. Surprise!
Even for crime solving this technology isn't good.
Mass spectroscopy allows the detection a very impressive dynamic range of concentrations.
It can pick up incredibly tiny traces of some substance, which means it is very good at picking up contaminants too.
Thus a lot of false positive may happen : forensic detect presence of substance X in some fingerprints. Did the suspect actually use-/consume-/come in contact with- substance X ? Or is it a contaminant that the suspect got on the fingers after shaking hand
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> you *can* (and actually *do already*) trust answers you get from high sensitivity MS machine.
I'd drifted off by here but the use of MS and trust jolted me back out of reality!
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Re:Privacy (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps I'm not fair to the harder drug users as I agree that somebody has a problem if they need a clean-test kid to rid themselves of coke, meth, or heroin before a drug test.
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It's not. In fact it's better. No hang over to slow you down the next day.
Stupid Reagan. He couldn't get his war on porn going, so it was switched to a war on drugs.
The fact that Clinton didn't push to ahve it removed during his second term disappointed me a lot.
For the record I do not, nor have any desire to, use Marijuana. I'm not going to let that opinion impact everybody else from this relatively harmless drug.
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"Why does everybody in my office scratch their balls so much?"
Because they itch when they get sweaty? It's sort of the chicken crossing the road thing.
Unlikely (Score:5, Insightful)
But from the nerd standpoint I gotta say - this is a pretty damned cool trick.
Re:Unlikely (Score:5, Informative)
I just saw a blurb in the news about how US currency has the most cocaine out of all currency tested. Handle your average bill (in the US) and you'll have trace amounts of blow on your fingers for sure.
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Re:Unlikely (Score:5, Funny)
Well, Mr. Anderson. The evidence indicates that either you are a coke fiend, or you have recently handled money.
This presents an interesting dilemma for us, as we do not pay you enough to either afford blow or to have money to handle. We have come to the conclusion that you have obtained outside employment. You are no longer necessary. Please pack your things and leave.
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I've actually used a GCMS to test ones, fives, and tens - they've all got it.
Re:Unlikely (Score:4, Interesting)
There's always the issue of cross-contamination just from handling the singles in your wallet, since paper money is apparently rife with traces of cocaine [yahoo.com].
Re:Unlikely (Score:5, Funny)
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Yes, the idea sounds pretty half-baked [halfbakery.com] to me.
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I doubt it would get put to use for drugs - that's just an example given. I think it's more likely for something like explosives - nitroglycerin is not your average household chemical. Given that every bomb, especially your homemade ones, have a specific chemical identity, it should be pretty easy to link you if there's a strong enough sample; kind of like gunshot residue.
G A T T A C A (Score:3, Insightful)
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Gattaca was about discrimination based on genetics, which a person can't (yet) control. This is about detecting trace amounts of substances being moved around by your fingertips.
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Yes, but one of the creepy parts of the movie was the omnipresent testing performed. Genetics is just one test. I was surprised that gattaca wasn't one of the tags for the story.
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I'm still trying to forget Attica, you insensitive clod!
The more things change... (Score:3, Funny)
Wiener (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wiener (Score:4, Funny)
Hahaha! Ah, Mr. Schwantz, you're so naive! I repeatedly touched your wiener just now. Your tests show nothing.
Reasonable proof? (Score:3, Insightful)
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So how does this analyzer determine who's an active drug user or just an innocent? Is cocaine on the keyboard enough evidence to require a drug test from an employee? Since the keyboard is company property, is it legal to scan it for trace amount of illegal drugs? Too many questions on this one...
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That is a very interesting point. My current keyboard I bought myself, so it is not company property. Does that mean that they would not have the right to swab my keyboard?
Oh great, another technology for Hollywood (Score:5, Funny)
CSI Wolfe: "We were able to lift half a fingerprint from the edge of the pencil the killer used to stab the victim in the eye..."
Lt. Caine: "Did you do a DESI test?"
CSI Wolfe: Yes, it indicated that the killer just got done eating a ham sandwich at the sub shop across the street before driving over here in his blue Toyota Corolla"
Lt. Caine: "License plate number?"
CSI Wolfe: "There wasn't quite enough on the print to get a complete number, we are having the computer analyze it to fill in the blanks."
Lt. Caine: "I guess you could say, [fill in useless plot device here]"
Music: "YEEEEAAAAHHHH"
Re:Oh great, another technology for Hollywood (Score:5, Funny)
Lt. Caine: "I guess you could say, {removes glasses} [fill in useless plot device here]"
Fixed that for you :)
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That show is one mask pull away from being Scooby Doo.
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Sadly, the killer was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Who in their right mind would get in their car just to drive across the street?
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Who in their right mind would get in their car just to drive across the street?
Most Americans? ;)
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Lt. Caine: "I guess you could say..."
[turns away, puts on sunglasses]
Lt. Caine: "...you shouldn't work out interpersonal problems with a pencil."
[five flash close shots of impaled eye socket to reversed decay of single musical note]
Music: "YEEEEAAAAHHHH"
"pico-analyzers" (Score:3, Interesting)
They can tell... (Score:2)
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It is if it gets you to start washing your hands before you leave the bathroom, then it's good~
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Interesting. This is more intrusive??? (Score:2)
If you're doing drugs, you're doing drugs. How is testing your keyboard more intrusive than peeing in a bottle while someone watches you. Only caveat is who was using your keyboard..As long as they follow up suspicious findings with a real drug test, WTF?
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It's not about the intrusiveness, but about the accuracy of any conclusion to be drawn. There is a reasonable conclusion that the urine they get from you is all yours. There is not the same conclusion that can be drawn about anything found on your keyboard, at least in most office situations.
It all needs to be vetted (Score:3, Insightful)
Nice CSI work, but before this will be admitted in a court, it'll have to go through immense amounts of testing. Soon, they'll be able to follow us by the DNA in dead skin we shed as we travel.
See Mikey? Bubba was whizzin in the woods. His DNA is all over the place....
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Nice CSI work, but before this will be admitted in a court, it'll have to go through immense amounts of testing.
You'd be surprised. Regular fingerprinting has actually not been tested that much. It's not a science, there's no agreement among the experts about how many key points you need to make a match. Once you determine that there's a match, they can't give you the probability that it's a false positive. They simply haven't done the statistical analysis. It's a very old technique, and really it pred
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Beyond a "reasonable doubt" may always be a problem, but we agree that reliance on DNA (like strands exist beyond statistical probabilities now accepted) and fingerprints (partials are dubious in some cases although forgery is also less likely)....
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At least with DNA you can get a number telling you there is a 1 in 10 billion chance that this is a false positive. They can't do that with fingerprints.
Historically, it's been too different to compare every known fingerprint to every other known fingerprint looking for random matches. But today we have huge databases of fingerprints on computer, and the computer power to compare them all. Why haven't they done the statistics? I think the law enforcement community is afraid to check their assumption tha
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Not so fast on that 1 in 10 billion number.
I saw an article in an admittedly unscientific publication, the LA Times recently:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dna20-2008jul20,0,5133446.story [latimes.com]
which is a long but interesting look at how DNA evidence can work, but also how it might be misleading (and I'm not talking about sloppy work and fraud). It's pause for thought.
Sure, that's the way to go about it (Score:2)
Because people don't already drop copious amounts of biological waste at work, they need to scrape minute amounts off of a keyboard.
If the office was this concerned, they could just install Dr. Toilet and wait for the 1:00 PM rush.
False Positives (Score:5, Insightful)
This reminds me of the case of the Birmingham Six [wikipedia.org] here in the UK, where part of the evidence against them - the Griess test [wikipedia.org] - which was supposed to prove handling of nitrate-based explosives - was later overturned when it was discovered that simply having handled laminated playing cards could generate a false positive in the test.
Another way to look at it: (Score:4, Insightful)
Remember this simple fact if you're not a US citizen and travel to the States next time. Have you ever wondered what all those people who were fingerprinted before you touched ?
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Duh, a fingerprint scanner...
Testing Positive For Drug Contact (Score:3, Insightful)
Why, yes, I have touched US currency. That's grounds for termination now?
news.yahoo.com [yahoo.com]
This also comes within a week of Barry George being released after being wrongfully imprisoned for the murder of British TV presenter, Jill Dando. In his case [bbc.co.uk], a particle of gun powder was detected on him and this was used to argue he was clearly the murderer. Eight years of his life gone, the conviction was ruled unsafe because the defense weren't allowed to point out the entirely true fact: a single particle proves absolutely nothing and is well within normal contamination levels.
Shows like CSI are incredibly dangerous. They lead us to assume that just because we can detect something, it somehow proves guilt. A single particle of gun powder goes not prove you fired a specific murder weapon. Traces of drugs on your banknotes don't prove they were involved in drug dealing (though police forces throughout the U.S. deliberately abuse that false assumption to merit seizing the money). Traces of drugs on someone's fingertips prove nothing more than they came in contact with U.S. currency which has been found to have up to 1,300 micrograms of cocaine per bill.
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Well, that's arguable, but since the show's writers are trying to portray their main characters as paragons of good and virtue, I found one exchange rather troubling - especially since so many people seem to take fiction as life lessons:
Suspect: "I was acquitted of that"
Horatio Caine: "But that doesn't mean you didn't do it, does it?"
Which is a stupid fucking point to bring up, as you might as well turn it on its head:
Horatio Caine: "You were convicted of killing and
doomed to fail (Score:3, Insightful)
check for illegal drug use of its employees by analyzing computer keyboards after the employees have gone home
Speaking as one who used to work nights cleaning offices of a very large global IT consultant during my student days and being a comp sci student alone at night in an office full of fancy computers with the latest software, I was basically like a kid in a candy store.. my prints may well have found their way onto quite a few keyboards in that place.. ;)
Do you know what happens in your office in the dead of night?
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Do you know what happens in your office in the dead of night?
Yes. It is in the business plan. After a full day of politicking and obstructionist management, the work must somehow get done. A night crew on crack of college kids grease the machines of corporate behemoths the world over.
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ummm..that's not grease.
Use a Notebook Computer and Portable Mouse (Score:2)
Uh... isn't there coke on most US currency? (Score:2)
A test that can't tell where or when you came in contact with a substance shouldn't be grounds for a legal search much less anything else.
Identified (Score:2)
FBI GUY: "This fingerprint has keyboard particles on it. Where do we go to find this ingenious perp. Not a trace of Girl to be found. Cheetos and Red Bull, and the faint dank traces of ... basement mold."
Innocent Bystander (innocently eating Cheetos and Drinking a Red Bull): "Um, you guys realize that you just described 1/2 of Slashdot"
Cheating spouses/partners? (Score:2)
I imagine if this type of technology takes off someone could use it to find a third party's DNA on someone's fingers. Divorce lawyers will love it! At it's extreme, this could be HILARIOUS.
company info (Score:2)
when i blogged about this yesterday
http://vark.blogspot.com/2008/08/mini-mass-spectrometer-from-small.html [blogspot.com]
i put in a link to the company that makes the gadget.
http://www.prosolia.com/ [prosolia.com]
Prosolia, Inc.
351 West 10th Street
Suite 316
Indianapolis, IN 46202
Hmm, I know right where that is, just down the street from me.
I haven't been through their dumpster yet.
above post is infomrative, insightful, indiscreet
If they (Score:2)
used this type of technology with urine instead of finger prints, it would be a Desi-Lu production...
DDOS (Score:2)
So, what happens when large groups of people independently all over the nation ddos the system?
Spray cleaning solution that contains 10% thc on door handles. Coat bills in residue. Don't a high percentage of hundred dollar bills already contain traces of coke? (or is that so eighties?).
Can't wait to the time when you won't dare shake someone's hand "because you don't know where it's been! or because you don't want the other party to analyze whatever it is you've been up to.
Direct route (Score:2)
Do you have money? (Score:2)
Unless you don't have hands, of course.
Exposure != guilt (Score:2)
Am I the only one who recalls a statistic floating around in the 90's saying that something like 90% of all cash had traces of cocaine on it?
If the technique is so sensitive you can pickup many things at a touch, then one would expect to pickup chemicals many times removed. What if I shake the hand of some random person who transfers chemicals onto me?
It's the same problem with guilt by association. If we're all socially linked by six to eight degress of separation, how many people, just by chance are 3-4 d
Well,This is a good argument for... (Score:2)
Well,this is a good argument for getting that SBA loan and working for oneself.
Re:Signed? (Score:5, Informative)
What's with the "signed" tag on all of the recent stories?
Slashdot now signs all of their stories for the hearing impaired.
Re:Signed? (Score:5, Funny)
That's awesome to see websites catering to people's disabilities. Now if they only had a device that output song lyrics in braille, blind people will be able to listen to songs for the first time!
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blind people will be able to listen to songs for the first time!
Well I'm not sure 'listen' is the correct term here but I do understand what you are saying. Some form of tactile feedback for the music, which has been done before. If I remember correct, some of Howard Sterns more famous douchebagery included having a girl lay her speaker on the floor to be straddled while he spoke causing the vibrations to give her pleasure. So I would think a sound system with very high excursion [wikipedia.org] would be a much better solution in the here and now for those with disabilities that want t
Re:Braille (Score:2)
You're good. I almost got whooshed.
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Reminds me of this WTF: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Incredibly-Accessible.aspx [thedailywtf.com]
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Don't blame the Desis. (Score:3, Funny)
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Will it be signed by Garrett Morris?
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Informative gives karma. Funny doesn't. Maybe the mods that actually got it were feeling like handing out karma for a very good joke, rather than the "typical" funny?
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Looks like it started at 1pm yesterday.
I'm curious now, too.
Re:Goatseeee (Score:5, Funny)
Thank God it wasn't a Rick Roll.
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Except Joe is in IT. I'm betting the Sprinkler was a manager.
Too bad he switched keyboards with the CEO.
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Yeah, like they'd bother to test the CEO or any of the PHB bosses. Different rules apply to them, don't ya know?
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Lets just put an ounce of it in his glove box, call crimestoppers, and nobody will see him for five to twenty years. I mean, if you really hate the guy...
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everything needs moar DESI!
But if you are at work, DO NOT google-image-search that acronym.
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Or maybe the Sears Catalog...
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Or perhaps Radio Shack
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I'm scared to even ask how you determined them to be nose hairs. Was it the taste that clued you in?