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Space Technology

Crack Found in Shuttle Tank 703

hpulley writes "The shuttle's new fuel tank, supposedly redesigned to be safer, has a crack in it. Pictures were sent to the manufacturer who decided that it is too small to be worrisome. Hmm, what caused the Columbia disaster, pieces of foam? Meanwhile, there will be a second shuttle on standby, just in case the first one has problems after being hit by foam, etc. If the first shuttle has a design flaw, what's to say the second one isn't afflicted by the same problem? Won't there be a good chance of them stranding the rescue crew in addition to the original crew? If an aircraft crashes and the redesign to fix it crashes, would you send another of the same type to rescue it? Of course not! The ISS is going to be a smelly, scary place with the regular complement and two shuttle crews onboard and no way home but a Russian Soyuz capsule that isn't slated to launch again until September and has seats for just three..."
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Crack Found in Shuttle Tank

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  • Why? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DarkHelmet ( 120004 ) * <mark&seventhcycle,net> on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:20PM (#12161746) Homepage

    I know that the tank itself was redesigned, but the whole concept of the shuttle is incredibly outdated.

    STS was originally conceived in the 60s, implemented in the 70s, and was launched in the 80s. I turned 24 today. The space shuttle first took off when I was six days old.

    From a technology standpoint, I don't use the same computers that were out in 1981. I don't drive a car that was made or designed in 1981. I don't even talk on a phone whose carrier techology was around in 1981.

    So why, WHY are we launching people into space with a program older than I am? And of all things, if we're really so keen on going to Mars, why should this of all things be our jumping off point?

    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:24PM (#12161792)
      STS was originally conceived in the 60s, implemented in the 70s, and was launched in the 80s. I turned 24 today. The space shuttle first took off when I was six days old.

      Sounds like Unix. And we're still using it, too.
      • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by vought ( 160908 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:19PM (#12162303)
        STS was originally conceived in the 60s, implemented in the 70s, and was launched in the 80s. I turned 24 today. The space shuttle first took off when I was six days old.

        Sounds like Unix. And we're still using it, too.

        That might be the most accurate comparison I've ever read on Slashdot. The thing is, it reads like a troll, but it isn't.


        Here are some other thoughts to go with yours:


        "Sonds like cars, which still have four wheels and reciprocating engines. And we're still using those too."
        "Sounds like the 747, which still has four jet engines. And we're still using that too."
        "Sounds like liquor, which still comes in glass bottles. And we're still using that too."
        "Sounds like soda, which still comes in cans. And we're still using that too."

        You might notice that:

        A: All the things we both named have been continuously improved since inception, despite vast advances in the underlying technology.
        B: UNIX is the only one unrecognizable in it's current state. (Mac OS X)
        C: The Shuttle's concept was not fleshed out properly after it got beyond the design stage. The same is not true of the other designs, which have been forced to compete in competitive markets.

        All of my examples (and yours, of UNIX) have done well in the market for over twenty years. The Space Shuttle has not, in my opinion.

        I regret that I never got down to Edwards to see the STS land while I lived in California. Odds are it probably won't land there again - unless someone here knows different. The recovery and travel costs are too high for NASA.

        Just thought it was worth a comment.

    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nametaken ( 610866 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:26PM (#12161809)
      I guess because its really expensive to start from scratch? I'm with you though... time for a clean start.

      From the summary: Pictures were sent to the manufacturer who decided that it is too small to be worrisome.

      I say, tell that to the astronauts who have to sit on top of the goddamn thing.
      • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

        by NOLAChief ( 646613 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @12:45AM (#12162877)
        From the FA (read it?):

        "The crack is about the size as a hair on the lens of a camera," NASA spokeswoman Eileen Hawley told reporters at NASA's Johnson Space Center. The crack was located just above the intertank door on the rear of the tank, opposite the orbiter, Hawley said.

        It sounds like a small surface defect in the spray on insulation, not in the aluminum tank. Similar defects have probably happened before, but never made the headlines. Most likely the maximum hazard is that they will see a very small amount of ice growth at that site when propellant is loaded. This isn't even a significant threat because the crack is on the opposite side of the tank from the orbiter, so unless you've got some ice that can do fancier flying than Oswald's magic bullet there is no threat to launch.

        What brought down Columbia was a large chunk of foam that was hand-applied when the tank was closed out. The hand-application process of the bipod ramp foam tends to leave large voids. That's what popped off and hit the wing. The ramps have been replaced with heaters to avoid ice formation at that location. (Ironically, the foam was put there in the first place to prevent ice from forming on that joint and hitting the orbiter.)

        Disclaimer: I work for NASA, but any opinions are my own and haven't been approved by anybody. I'm just trying to inject a little sanity into this discussion...

    • Re:Why? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by mabinogi ( 74033 )
      It worked in 1981, it works now.
      The existence of newer, better stuff doesn't make older stuff automatically stop working.

      Also, I'd be surprised if they really were using all the same computer equipment and software from 1981.
      • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        From wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

        Internally the Shuttle remains largely similar to the original design, with the exception that the avionics continues to be improved. The original systems were "hardened" IBM 360 computers connected to analog displays in the cockpit similar to contemporary airliners like the DC-10. Today the cockpits are being replaced with "all glass" systems and the computers themselves are many times faster. The computers use the HAL/S programming language. In the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project tradition, pro
        • Re:Why? (Score:5, Funny)

          by Dr. GeneMachine ( 720233 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:42PM (#12162457)
          HAL/S programming language?

          Do error messages come in the form of "I am sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.", or what?

          • Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)

            by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @01:35AM (#12163099) Homepage
            It stands for High-level Aerospace Language / Shuttle, designed by Intermetrics for NASA. I suspect that the acronym was selected first, and then they found some words to fit it, a common practice in those days.
    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

      by LWATCDR ( 28044 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:30PM (#12161850) Homepage Journal
      If it makes you feel better the shuttles do not use the same computer they did in 81.
      They have been updated a lot since they first flew.
      The Air Force flys Bombers designed in the 40s and built in the 50s. Fighters that where designed in the 60s and built in the 70s. Even the Boeing 747 was first built in the 60s as was the 737. I agree that the shuttle does need to be replaced but it is not the same shuttle that flew in the early 80s
      • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

        by agraupe ( 769778 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:45PM (#12162012) Journal
        Your analogy is correct, but remember that most of the early (-100 and -200) 737s, and almost all 747-100s are out of service now, and the 747-200 is well on its way. Now, some of the old Russian planes are still in service for much longer (such as the Aerogaviota An-24 I flew on in Cuba), so what does that say about their reliability? ;)
        • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

          by afidel ( 530433 )
          Little is left unchanged on the Shuttle fleet except the airframe, which if designed right can almost last forever. The B-52 fleet has many airframes older than the parents of the people flying them for instance. None of the members of the shuttle fleet have that many launches on them, and with things like the entire engine being redesigned and rebuilt and the computers being massivly updated over the years the shuttles are only superficially the same craft as were first launched in the 80's.
        • Boeing built the 7x7s with service contracts and years and years of supplying spare parts in mind as part of the design. Commercialism at its finest - the units are a source of revenue even after they're out of production.

          Russian aerospace, conversely, was designed to Work And Work Well, not to Work And Turn A Profit. So they were Built To Last, not built to be replaced in 10-15 years max.
      • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Daikiki ( 227620 ) <daikikiNO@SPAMwanadoo.nl> on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:56PM (#12162095) Homepage Journal
        I agree that the shuttle does need to be replaced but it is not the same shuttle that flew in the early 80s.

        No it's not. Those both exploded.

        As a matter of fact, they both exploded because something seemingly trivial went wrong, something that nobody in a million years would have thought could endanger the orbiter. Something like a tiny crack in the foam on the external fuel tank. All the processing power in the world won't help one iota if sloppy security procedures and pressure to push the launch through cause yet another seemingly trivial thing to go wrong. I just hope NASA knows what it's doing.
        • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by georgewilliamherbert ( 211790 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:07PM (#12162217)


          I agree that the shuttle does need to be replaced but it is not the same shuttle that flew in the early 80s.

          No it's not. Those both exploded.
          As a matter of fact, they both exploded because something seemingly trivial went wrong, something that nobody in a million years would have thought could endanger the orbiter. Something like a tiny crack in the foam on the external fuel tank. All the processing power in the world won't help one iota if sloppy security procedures and pressure to push the launch through cause yet another seemingly trivial thing to go wrong. I just hope NASA knows what it's doing.

          In neither the Challenger nor Columbia losses was the failure something that was completely unanticipated. Both of the fatal problems had been identified as a specific risk and were being worked on and analyzed when the accidents happened.


          Inability to conduct reasonable and overriding safety reviews in NASA's operations was a major and legitimate issue, but your claim goes well beyond what the historical record substantiates.

        • Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by olafva ( 188481 )
          Challenger was definitely preventable, just ask McDonald who was in charge at the Cape, BUT was over-ruled. He has agonized over this for years as he had to carry the Fax down the hall (which he disagreed with) to go ahead with the launch. Also, NASA lacked an administrator then (like now) who could call the shots. Jim Beggs wouldn't have allowed Challenger to be launched, but the DoJ was tying him up with trivial GD legal matters he was later cleared of. But he had to step aside to defend himself from th
      • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

        by AJWM ( 19027 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @01:16AM (#12163018) Homepage
        but it is not the same shuttle that flew in the early 80s

        You're right, it isn't. That one burned up on reentry a couple of years ago. The design, however, is fundamentally the same, modulo a few manufacturing refinements (TPS changes, etc) they came up with in the ones that flew in the mid 80s and beyond (and were all built in the late 70s/early 80s). Even Endeavour, the replacement for Challenger, is in large part made up of "structural spares" made during the original manufacturing run.

        Of course they do pretty much tear down and completely overhaul each Orbiter between missions, which is another reason the dang things are so expensive to fly.
    • Re:Why? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by kizzbizz ( 870017 ) *
      The technology in the planes you fly in are over 50 years old. Old doesn't always necessarily equate to Bad. NASA doens't have the kind of private sector innovation that the computer you use or the car you drive has. They only have themselves. Hopefully as the X-Prize evolves the private sector will be able to get its foothold in, but untill then, the Shuttle is all we've got. And just because its 24+ years old, doesn't mean it isnt capable.
    • Re:Why? (Score:2, Troll)

      I don't even talk on a phone whose carrier techology was around in 1981.

      Guess you don't ever talk on a landline then because the technology in them hasn't changed since Alexander Graham Bell.

    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Man in Spandex ( 775950 ) <prsn DOT kev AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:35PM (#12161916)
      I could tell you why we are still using 30 year old shuttles but that would involve me using the Chewbacca Defense [wikipedia.org].
    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Frumious Wombat ( 845680 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:37PM (#12161931)
      According to a couple of people I know who are pilots, the issue with any aircraft isn't physical age, but hours in the air. This is why you can still safely buy and fly a Piper Cub, or, if you're SAC, a somewhat updated B-52, first built back in the '50s.

      Those shuttles are probably finally making it to broken in, from an airframe standpoint. (even if they are approaching the day for that one, last, flight to the Air and Space Museum)
    • "So why, WHY are we launching people into space with a program older than I am?"

      Heh. Won't you be surprised when you find out how old some of the planes are that are making round trips every single day.

    • Re:Why? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by zymano ( 581466 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:48PM (#12162511)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:20PM (#12161747)
    They heard space was black, so of course they're trying to get crack there.
  • by Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS- ( 624050 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:20PM (#12161750) Journal
    I think the summary needs more pessimism...
    • Quite honestly, this article should be modded -1, Flamebait. It's completely and utterly pointless, except to rile us up and get us talking. I realize thats the point of slashdot, but come on editors, can we get some CONTENT here?
  • Risk vs Reward (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fembots ( 753724 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:20PM (#12161751) Homepage
    Pardon me for being insensitive here, but I always wonder what the problem is with a potentially problematic space shuttle? Is it the cost, bad PR or safety of the crews?

    It always puzzles me that a country which recruits hundreds of thousands of soldiers and spends hundreds of billions of dollars to go to wars with guaranteed casualties (and not all die in action) are so timid in losing a relatively small percentage of lives/dollars to go to space.

    Everything has a risk, if you send those astronauts to do sky diving (or just drive to the supermarket) often enough, some of them will get killed too.

    Why can't we allow those who are more than willing to sacrify their lives to go to space to do just that?

    I understand that we have the responsibility to maintain certain level of reliability and to minimize risk, but all the safety concerns are slowing things way down. Other countries are catching up fast, maybe their lives are cheap? Or maybe they knew and anticipated the risk of losing lives to achieve something great?

    I guess we can't go to the moon now because of the deadly moon dust [slashdot.org], imagine what would have happened if we discovered it before landing on the moon?
    • It always puzzles me that a country which recruits hundreds of thousands of soldiers and spends hundreds of billions of dollars to go to wars with guaranteed casualties (and not all die in action) are so timid in losing a relatively small percentage of lives/dollars to go to space.

      Because war is about killing people and spacetravel is not. (although I agree with your point, which has been raised on /. more than once)

    • Re:Risk vs Reward (Score:5, Insightful)

      by shadowbearer ( 554144 ) * on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:03PM (#12162169) Homepage Journal

      Soldiers are many, but Astronauts are few.

      Public perception is a funny thing... now if we routinely sent thousands or tens of thousands of people to space, the media hype over accidents would subside considerably (on a national level anyway).

      A good example there might be the airline industry?

      SB
  • by Overly Critical Guy ( 663429 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:21PM (#12161755)
    I thought what most people will think on seeing this headline. NASA's secret stash? Astronauts really are getting high these days.
  • Two words (Score:5, Funny)

    by fiori ( 45848 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:21PM (#12161757) Homepage
    Duct tape...
    • Chewing gum [gumbase.org]
    • Re:Two words (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:52PM (#12162066)
      Nope, it's gray tape. A friend of mine works on one of the ground crews responsible for general arbitrary repairs in space (ie. "this thing is acting up, what do we need to do to make it work again"). NASA gray tape is similar to duct/duck tape, but it is not electrically conductive. According to him, there is a shitload of it on the ISS, and it is an acceptable repair method as far as NASA is concerned.

      This is what happens when you build your Space Center in Texas.
      • Re:Two words (Score:3, Interesting)

        by timeOday ( 582209 )
        NASA gray tape is similar to duct/duck tape, but it is not electrically conductive.
        Duct tape is a good conductor? I think not.
  • by Kris_J ( 10111 ) * on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:21PM (#12161762) Homepage Journal
    We should obviously give up on space then, it's just too hard. It costs too much and has some level of risk. If something's too hard it's not worth doing. The money should be spent on privitising social security or pumping oil out of Iraq.
    • Ooops. Think again (Score:3, Interesting)

      by helioquake ( 841463 )
      Allow me to re-submit my journal here. Just because. Remember, the federal government invests a large amount of sum to do basic research and development. The knowledge trickles down eventually to private sectors, which could not have had done the R&D in the first place because of its prohibitive cost.

      ****

      Exploration and investment are the reasons for a [space] mission like this.

      The former -- exploration -- is what NASA and scientists will advertise in front. Why? Because we know so little about comet
  • I bet the stuff cracks all the time, no one ever looked at it before. I think the foam has been redesigned out of softer material so that even frozen to sub-zero temperatures, it won't be heavy or hard enough to dislodge the tiles. And they actually inspect it closely now, whereas before tons of foam flew off at every launch and it just happened to mess up the tiles that one time... I don't think it's anything to worry about. And if so, we've been needing a new transporter for a good 10 years anyway.
  • Those foul cocain-junkie astronauts!
  • Conspiracy (Score:4, Funny)

    by Muhammar ( 659468 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:24PM (#12161793)
    It was the DEA agents who planted the crack in the tank firstplace.
  • by darkitecture ( 627408 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:24PM (#12161799)

    If the first shuttle has a design flaw, what's to say the second one isn't afflicted by the same problem? Won't there be a good chance of them stranding the rescue crew in addition to the original crew? If an aircraft crashes and the redesign to fix it crashes, would you send another of the same type to rescue it? Of course not!

    Whatever the fuck happened to objective reporting? What is this, Fox News? :P Here's an idea: Give us a brief description of the facts and a nice informative link and keep your speculative comments to yourself.

    • by node 3 ( 115640 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:18PM (#12162293)
      What is this, Fox News?

      Transcript from tonight's O'Reilly Factor (not really)...
      The Big O: We're back tonight with Chuck Meyers, the head of space research at the non-partisan "Conservative Christian Political Activist Consortium". Chuck, is this crack in the shuttle's fuel tank due to NASA's liberalism or their anti-Americanism?

      CM: Well, Bill, it's really tough to say, it could be either one, but I think if you take into account the atheism rampant in the scientific community, this crack makes more sense.

      O: I hadn't thought of that. Here on the Factor, we're not afraid to admit we didn't think of something, unlike the liberal media. So what you're saying is that the atheist ACLU-aligned scientists at NASA (and remember, the ACLU is the most dangerous organization in the world, more dangerous than al Qaida), are afraid of letting the shuttle getting to close to the firmament, and have sabotaged the shuttle in order to keep the wool over the people's eyes.

      CM: Exactly right Bill. The crack in the shuttle tank is a sure sign that we haven't learned from the rampant activism of our judiciary, who murdered Terri Schiavo, and are now-

      O: Just a second, Mr. Meyers. This is the "no spin zone".

      CM: Oh, I thought we were supposed to blame the liberal-

      O: No, I meant you need to stop spinning in your chair, it doesn't look good on camera.

      CM: Ah, sorry. Where was I? Yes, the atheist liberal scientists, who are thumbing their noses at the Pope's passing by continuing to work on the so-called "space" shuttle...
  • by nacs ( 658138 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:24PM (#12161800) Journal
    Here comes a deluge of +5 funnys. ...

    "I thought NASA had their funding cut not increased?" ...

    "Does Bush know there's crack on the space shuttle? He would probably want to join in on the action". ...

    "If I would knew there was crack available there, I would have paid more attention on the Cape Canaveral tour"
    • The crack in the shuttle...NASA took a page from John DeLorean's book for funding their program. (Not too soon, I hope)

    • by Anonymous Coward
      Yup, half of these posts will be modded funny, just to add to that list...

      "Somewhere out there is someone's secret stash, thinking a space shuttle is where it won't be found."

      "Maybe NASA could sell that to increase its funding"

      "Suddenly crackheads everywhere will aspire to be astronauts."

      "Record number of crackhheads try to stow away on space shuttles"

      "Well, as a NASA exec, I'm just releived that didn't find the pot- I mean, pod. Yeah, pod!"

  • by Keith Mickunas ( 460655 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:25PM (#12161804) Homepage
    The shuttle has flown over 100 times with only two serious failures. There have been minor issues from time to time, but most of the time it's flown just fine. Why do you think that this one will be so different? Do you believe that some of the modifications may actually make it more dangerous? Sure something could happen, but the notion that the standby shuttle would also have a problem is just a bit paranoid, don't you think?
  • by mkmccarty ( 530845 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:27PM (#12161818)
    If the poster read the suggested articles he would know the crack is in the tank's insulation and not the tank.
  • Didn't John von Neumann say that redundancy made it possible to engineer a highly reliable system using thousands of unreliable parts? Parts that were extremely unreliable by today's standards.

    Maybe this is kind of design mentality that is needed in the space program. Not one standby for each part, but a massively redundant system.
    • That's why spaceships need to be right with the set of parts they have - otherwise you have a spiral of diminishing returns on adding redundancy and trying to lift it, making it a harder job, etc...

      I am not that kind of engineer. You may safely ignore me.

  • Probably Ok (Score:2, Interesting)

    by GizmoToy ( 450886 )
    If the manufacturers determined that the crack is unlikely to cause a problem, I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty minor. NASA knows, at this point, that the launch is going to be under intense scrutiny. I seriously doubt they'd put the mission in dager if they were anything less than 100% certain it wouldn't be a problem.

    Besides that, I still disagree with the official explaination of the Challenger disaster. I don't know if anyone else watched the very interesting piece on the Discovery channel a
  • by eno2001 ( 527078 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:29PM (#12161848) Homepage Journal
    ...but, I swear when I read the headline that they meant that crack (as in crack cocaine) was found in the shuttle tank. I was trying to figure out how someone who would have crack would even gain access to where the shuttle tanks are kept. I also got this mental image of a seedy character dropping a few rocks into this very large, very smooth metal container. Considering how much bad luck we've had with the shuttle projects, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a good deal of drug use happening there though. Probably not crack.
  • by deft ( 253558 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:31PM (#12161871) Homepage
    I bet the people at NASA who are smarter in their sleep than I will ever be could never come up with that.

    Hell, I bet this guy knows what the tolerances for the tanks are intricately... way more than the GUYS WHO DESIGNED IT AND MADE IT FLY FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS.

    This whole article reminds me of a little dog jumping up and down saying "hey boss, what if, hey boss what if" and you just want to kick it.
  • by rminsk ( 831757 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:32PM (#12161875)
    and the first line "The shuttle's new fuel tank, supposedly redesigned to be safer, has a crack in it." The tank does NOT have a crack in it, the foam insulation around the tank has a crack. There is a huge difference.
  • Hmm, what caused the Columbia disaster, pieces of foam?

    By this, I think the submitter is insinuating that on another occasion a potential problem which appeared minor turned into a disaster, so certainly the manufacturer is underestimating the risks now. But when I put it like that, it's pretty obvious that the submitter is an idiot.
  • This kind of pessimism isn't going to help the situation. The fact is, outdated as it is, the shuttle is the only means we have for getting massive equipment to the ISS, which we're obligated to do.

    Space flight is risky, and the shuttle is even riskier than it has to be, but we have to finish the job. In this case, that means putting people's lives at risk, even though we know the shuttle is basically a huge mistake. Giving up on the ISS now will leave us out in the cold when the next space race heat

  • And what if the brother-in-law of the pilot of the rescue shuttle gets hit by a truck the night before, so he (the pilot) gets teary and misty-eyed at the wrong moment? And what if a loose screw from Skylab or one of the Apollo missions happens to intersect the orbit of the ISS a breaks a window? And what if just everything that could possibly go wrong goes wrong, all at once? What will the original poster find to worry about when it's all come true just the way he imagined it?
  • I don't get it. Who would the astronauts be smuggling it to? The ISS? At any rate, hiding it in a fuel tank isn't very original---no wonder they got caught. There was no mention of the size of the bust in the /. summary. I guess I could read the article, but why bother? I'll bet you can fit a lot of crack into a Shuttle tank, though!

  • Oh good grief. What a "The Sky is Falling" post. How many missions have these shuttles flown? How many times has one taken off and landed? How many disasters have there been?

    How in the world did such a random, flaky, paranoid article get listed anyway???

    Feh, I wonder which /. editor hpulley is sleeping with.
  • by joekerrthejoker ( 567297 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @10:59PM (#12162122) Journal
    Linear Elastic Fracture Mechanics. Basically, it's the study of cracks. And, there can exist cracks that won't propagate if the stress intensity is within parameters (usually determined with a safety factor). So the manufacturer probably is confident that the crack is fine. Obviously, no crack is good, but ALL materials crack with life because of fatiguing. There, now you have a mechanical engineer's viewpoint.
  • Cracks (Score:5, Informative)

    by florescent_beige ( 608235 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:14PM (#12162257) Journal
    Maybe not everyone knows this...every airplane you ever flew on has cracks

    There is a whole branch of structural engineering called damage tolerance which deals with cracks. The certification process for new airplanes deals with it extensively. For example, we must assume that any airplane can have a .050" crack at any location. Such a crack is assumed to grow, and it might get quite long before it must be found. I'm talking inches in length, sometimes.

  • by ari_j ( 90255 ) on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:30PM (#12162367)
    (Season 3, episode 7 - The Day the Earth Stood Stupid)

    Everyone on Earth, except Fry and Nibbler, suffers from acute and utter stupidity caused by an invasion of enormous brains.

    Linda (newscaster): Hi! Today, some bad things happened. One bad thing was, a train go crashed in New Jersey. Wanna see? People won't be late for work, though, because the Governor lady said, "I'm sending in more trains."
  • by fname ( 199759 ) * on Wednesday April 06, 2005 @11:39PM (#12162433) Journal
    I think the submitter needs to study the Columbia report and understand the Aerospace industry a lot more before trying to (and apparently succeeding at) alarming the /. crowd (which, quite frankly, isn't that hard to do).

    First, while it was "pieces of foam" that caused the problem, it was decided that it was most likely a single suitcase-sized piece of foam hitting the leading-edge carbon/carbon that led to the eventual destruction of Columbia. The SOFI (spray-on foam insulation) process has been improved to reduce the number & size of voids in the SOFI. The maximum size of foam expected to fall off now is on the order of 1% of the size of the piece that doomed Columbia. Further, the bipod ramp foam has been eliminated in the redesign. Further, they've developed new techniques to inspect the SOFI so they can detect any anomalies. If they found something, which apparently they have, engineers can assess it and determine its severity. I'm not familiar with the specific issue, but depending on its sign & location, it was apparently deemed to not be a problem. Essentially, NASA is probably inspecting better now, so they are seeing more lumps. It doesn't mean that this isn't the best external tank ever built (it doesn't mean it is, either).

    And in general, the whole SOFI system has extremely high visibility at NASA (I don't work there) and beyond (I do work there), and if any engineer thought it could be a safety issue, the launch would be delayed.

    Not to mention, the tank wasn't "supposedly" redesigned; it was redesigned. Unless the submitter is suggesting that there was a massive conspiracy to deceive the public into pretending the shuttle tank was redesigned when it wasn't (but apparently not large enough to squelch any whistle-blowers), he should refrain from making those sorts of allegations.

    The rest of his comment barely qualifies as idle speculation; the rescue crew is a last-resort, and NASA is not anticipating any problems. The idea of preparing a "rescue" craft was in direct response to Columbia when it was asked what NASA could do if they knew shuttle was doomed. If they detect a problem, NASA will assess and decide to either a) land at Kennedy/ Edwards as planned if there's nominal risk (I'd rate that at 95%), b) land in White Sands with a full crew if there's low to (I'm guessing) medium risk (let's call that 4.9%); c) launch a rescue mission and either ditch shuttle if they're sure it's doomed, or land at White Sands with a minimal crew if the think it might be doomed (I'd say 0.1%).

    No, I'm not a rocket scientist. I'm a rocket engineer. And I find it sad that Slashdot chose to post this story when I bet there were other, fact-based submissions written by people more knowledgeable about the subject at hand.
    • by fname ( 199759 ) * on Thursday April 07, 2005 @02:05AM (#12163221) Journal
      OK, I've now RTFA.

      The crack is the width of a human hair, and it is on the side of the tank opposite the orbiter. The article doesn't specify how high up the crack is, but if it's low enough, it poses zero threat to the orbiter.

      The shuttle is now being processed for flight. Rolling it onto the pad is not the same thing as launching it. NASA would hold up processing if they believed the defect was so serious they would likely have to replace the tank. NASA has decided to continue processing, but if the engineers later analyze the problem and decide it does pose a threat, NASA still has plenty of oppurtunites to change their course.

      The article makes very clear the scope of the problem, and NASA's response to it. Someone probably noticed a discrepancy report identifying the crack in the SOFI. The responsible engineer likely responded by halting processing to get an assessment from engineering. Someone took a quick look at it (or the report already written about it), decided it would be low risk, and made the decision to continue processing. I bet they also asked the engineers to take a closer look at the issue in the very short term future.

      What would you do differently? The more I study the real problem, the more hysterical the submission seems.
  • Real Engineering (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Braf ( 799927 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @12:33AM (#12162805)
    I know it's too late and no one will read this, but...

    I would like to point out that the level of engineering involved in the design of the shuttle is in a completely different class than any technology you have in your computer or in your car or that you've likely ever have had physical contact with. Cars and computers advance quickly because they are cheap and if they occasionally don't work no one really cares.

    Everyone bringing up the age of the space shuttle sounds like morons. Whatever our next orbiter is going to be, the technology will be outdated. It has to be outdated by the time the thing is ready for flight because it has to be proven. You don't use the latest composite materials or computers in building something of this cost (dollar, life, and national pride) because you don't know how they respond to the excessive accelerations, vibrations, and high energy radiation involved.

    This is assuming you're building a real vehicle and not a toy to win a prize. And actually, we probably will not see another feat of engineering like the current orbiter because the government doesn't give money to people who know what they're are doing like they use to and the private sector is too lazy and opportunistic to engineer it right.
    • by gerardrj ( 207690 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @02:49AM (#12163362) Journal
      The Apollo missions were all carried out with cutting edge technology for their time and they were just as safe or failure prone (depending on your point of view) as the much more expensive space shuttle program.

      The Apollo program achieved all of its goals in allowing for frequent human missions to space and the moon. The Space Shuttle has failed in most of its design goals; if you don't recall, the program was designed to put a shuttle in to orbit 10 times a year for 10 years each ferrying inhabitants and materials to a space station. Each shuttle was supposed to last for 100 flights and there were 5 shuttles, the math show then that there should have been 500 shuttle flights between 1981 and today. To date I think there have been 103; that's pathetic.

      The space station the shuttle was to shuttle to and from a space station, itself a joke. Over budget, less than half the designed volume, less than 1/5 the designed occupancy, the science it produces is negligible and could (for the most part) be performed via robotics.

      NASA screwed the pooch on these programs. Am I playing monday morning quarterback? Sure, but these were NASA's top priority missions. They had the greatest visibility, funding and brain-trust. Why have a partially re-usable space shuttle that has to be dismantled, inspected and refurbished after each flight. How is this any better than mostly expendable vehicles? The space shuttle is not a product of engineers, it's a product of politicians and special interests.

      Who do I blame? The politicians. The elected ones and the middle and upper management in NASA. If NASA was properly/well funded and the managers just let the engineers do what they do, things would likely be very much better off.
  • by mrselfdestrukt ( 149193 ) <nollie_A7_firstcounsel_com> on Thursday April 07, 2005 @12:55AM (#12162921) Homepage Journal
    Fictional Article #1:
    A computer program to disable the CD-copy protection on one of the software applications onboard the shuttle has been found hidden in one of the external fuel tanks. Mr.Astrau Naut, Spokesperson for NASA said "We are not sure how it got there, but it's only a CD-crack for Office XP, so it's nothing to worry about. It's not like we violated the SCO license or anything.That could have had serious implications." It is thought that the crack was hidden in the tank to be implemented at a later stage on one of the laptops onboard.NASA shuttle crew delayed the launch to search for other cracks and key-generators in the shuttle.
    A small inscription stating that "All your base are belong to us" have been found on the belly of the shuttle."We don't think it is a terrorist act" Pres. G.W Bush was quoted as saying when asked about it on the golf course.
  • Troll. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tokerat ( 150341 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:03AM (#12163403) Journal

    The shuttle's new fuel tank, supposedly redesigned to be safer, has a crack in it.
    Nope, the foam insulation has a crack in it. RTFA.
    Hmm, what caused the Columbia disaster, pieces of foam?
    Oh you knew that, but failed to mention it resulting in a more urgent tone for more attention?
    Meanwhile, there will be a second shuttle on standby, just in case the first one has problems after being hit by foam, etc. If the first shuttle has a design flaw, what's to say the second one isn't afflicted by the same problem?
    Most likely, the same guys who found the first problem, using the newly created safety procedures, to ensure the same flaw didn't happen twice?

    The hairline crack is on the side of the tank opposite the shuttle. No one is sending astronauts to their death, this article is looking for a flame war.
  • by Eric Smith ( 4379 ) * on Thursday April 07, 2005 @04:33AM (#12163651) Homepage Journal
    If the first shuttle has a design flaw, what's to say the second one isn't afflicted by the same problem?
    The shuttle has historically had a catastrophic failure rate of less than 2%. It is unlikely that the recent changes have made the shuttle any less reliable. Thus if there is a problem with one, it is still reasonable to send a second one after it.

    However, if they're willing to have a second shuttle on standby, their excuse for not doing a Hubble servicing mission (too dangerous, can't go to ISS) is complete bullshit. But everyone has known that ever since it was revealed that they made that decision without bothering to actually do a risk analysis.

  • by ahecht ( 567934 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @05:21AM (#12163738) Homepage
    I mean, seriously, use some common sense. More 747s have crashed than space shuttles (yes, even after redesigns), but I bet you wouldn't think twice about flying on one. It's this kind of reactionist irrational thinking that has prevented real progress in the space program.

    Oh no, what if someone breaks a nail?

  • by reallocate ( 142797 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @07:52AM (#12164082)
    The crack is not in the external tank. The crack is in the foam insulation surrounding the external tank. The lede in the Space.com story is wrong. Guess Slashdot readers and Slashdot staff can't be bothered to read more than one paragraph.

    Do people at /. get paid to be this bad?

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