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Science Technology

Metal Velcro 192

Posted by michael from the rough-edges dept.
RotJ writes "British scientists have developed technology that can grow structures up to 2 millimetres high and 0.2 millimetres in diameter on metal surfaces. Dubbed Surfi-Sculpt, it 'will act like ultra-strong Velcro to form much tougher joints between metals and lightweight composite materials'."
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Metal Velcro More

Metal Velcro

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  • Fast to create as well (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Space cowboy ( 13680 ) * on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:44PM (#9161746) Journal
    Whenever I read one of these articles about a process requiring X, Y and Z to all do novel things A,B and C under strict conditions, I always think 'how are you going to commercialise that?! Chip fabrication was a case in point - I guess where there's a multi-billion dollar will, there's a way...

    This process requires lasers to melt the metal and tease the structures into being and yet it can do 100 cm^2 in 10 seconds... That's just not intuitive [grin]. Kudos to the researchers - us Brits have always been jealous of the Yanks for inventing the zip anyway :-)

    Simon

    • Mi5? (Re:Fast to create as well) (Score:4, Funny)

      by otisg ( 92803 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:50PM (#9161784) Homepage Journal
      Q is alive! Q is alive!

      Regards,
      Moneypenny

    • Re:Fast to create as well (Score:5, Informative)

      by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:17PM (#9161962) Homepage
      us Brits have always been jealous of the Yanks for inventing the zip anyway/i>

      Really? Strange, since the modern zipper [about.com] was invented by Canadian Gideon Sundback.

    • Re:Fast to create as well (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Jennifer E. Elaan ( 463827 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:22PM (#9161988) Homepage
      It's not a laser at all, but an electron beam. And as for the speed at which an electron beam can be scanned over a square surface, chances are you're staring at a demonstration of this as you read this.

      This is the same technology that is used in CRT's, but scaled up a few orders of magnitude in power. And a computer just draws shapes with it, like an old vector graphics screen. Not just commercializable, it's easy to do.

    • No. (Score:2, Informative)

      by gr3y ( 549124 )

      It doesn't "use lasers to melt the metal and tease the structures into being".

      The process uses a beam of electrons; a laser is beam of photons. The process relies on surface tension to form the structures; they form on their own and are not "teased" at all.

      You are neither interesting nor informative. I was going to mod you down, but because this process has tremendous commercial potential, I decided that it was more important to point out the facts are not in agreement with your summary. You're welc

      • Manners Maketh Man (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Space cowboy ( 13680 ) * on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:57PM (#9162186) Journal
        With regard to the electrons rather than photons, someone else had already previously pointed that out anyway. Fair cop.

        The 'teasing' I think is a fair description, since the article itself uses the word to describe the process:

        "Electromagnetic fields controlled by software choreograph the electron beam's movements around the metal, teasing out many projections at once."


        So, in your opinion I may not be either interesting or informative, but I am 50% correct. As were you. You're welcome too.

        Simon.

        • You are not (Score:3, Insightful)

          by gr3y ( 549124 )

          even half right, and we're not competing here.

          You paraphrased the article inaccurately, attributing the commercial potential you're talking about to a technology that isn't described. Your defense is that someone else previously pointed it out so that it's a "fair cop", and that Mick Hamer used the word "teasing" to describe the process to his intended audience in the article he wrote.

          The "fast to create" that you speak of is a direct result of the technology you misrepresented. Your path does not lea


          • You paraphrased the article inaccurately, attributing the commercial potential you're talking about to a technology that isn't described. Your defense is that someone else previously pointed it out so that it's a "fair cop", and that Mick Hamer used the word "teasing" to describe the process to his intended audience in the article he wrote.

            [the latter part of the post remains unquoted since it deals with consequences, not statements or postulates]

            [sigh]. Indeed. In the first instance I was wrong, it w

    • I guess where there's a multi-billion dollar will, there's a way...

      ...and a beneficiary.

  • Velcro (Score:2, Funny)

    by whiteranger99x ( 235024 )
    Well we can now that everything in society is being held together only by Velcro :P

  • Let me be the first to say... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Scorpion_1169 ( 609426 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:47PM (#9161765) Homepage
    OUCH!!! I really wouldnt want to accidentally sit on that stuff. Think cactus spines that refuse to come out.

  • Rods huh? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:47PM (#9161766)
    Did anybody else notice a striking resemblence between those 'rods' and some other 'rods' that ~50% on the planet's population have? *cough*
  • To make a projection, researchers focus a beam of electrons in a vacuum chamber at the point on a metal surface where they want it to grow. The metal melts at the centre of the beam. When the beam is moved sideways, surface tension pulls the molten metal into a droplet.

    Sounds like me with a soldering iron

  • Awesome (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thedillybar ( 677116 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:50PM (#9161783)
    This looks like a great idea, I just hope it holds up well to age and fatigue.

    It will be interesting to see whether or not this actually makes it into production anytime in the near future (or even in our lifetime). I hope so.

  • Other applications? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by beeplet ( 735701 ) <beeplet@gmail.com> on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:51PM (#9161785) Journal
    That's pretty impressive, even if it's not the hook-and-eye structure that the word "velcro" first brought to mind.

    I'm sure there must be other applications besides bonding that would benefit from increased surface area. Heatsinks, maybe?

    • Re:Other applications? (Score:5, Informative)

      by xmda ( 43558 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:18PM (#9161965) Journal
      Did you read the article:

      The projections could be used to encourage bone to grow onto artificial hips. They could also be used in electronics to produce heat sinks of just about any shape.

    • Re:Other applications? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      well probably not a heat sink.

      Yes surface area is grat for heatsinks, but u also want the air to move as fast as possible acros the surface.

      i would say that a textured surface like that (creating a lot of turbulance) would reduce air flow very close to the surface and hence reduce the heat transfered.

      IIRC cactus use this idea, there spikes reduce the airmovement acros there surface and hence reduce evaporation of water

    • Re:Other applications? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:46PM (#9162119) Homepage Journal
      The sibling to this comment put aside for a moment (or longer), this technology will probably not make heat sinks all that much more efficient, but it may provide improvements in the methods of manufacturing them. There is a certain minimum clearance between fins of a heat sink beyond which airflow will suffer significantly. This will vary based on pressure, in that the smaller the hole is, the more pressure you need to get a decent flow rate through it.

      To me, the primary benefit appears to be the improved speed of manufacturing, not the precision - though that is certainly a positive factor. In fact, since I mention radiators, building complicated structures like that could more easily be done by a machine. It would be really slick if you could have an enclosed robotic system that would build radiators from stocks of tubing and varying sizes of aluminum ribbon and sheet. Aluminum racing radiators, 1-n cores, while-u-wait - and they could be sold for the price of an ordinary radiator because they would be completed very rapidly. Just run out a length of the stuff, crimp to shape, zap it with the electron beam, and push it together.

      One has to wonder if you could somehow employ this technique on a larger scale to get penetration, so you could do fusion welding without having to bring an arc near. Then you really could build just about anything. All you need is a plasma cutter, a small-scale electron welder, and a large-scale one. Metal parts can be cut to shape and welded, and parts made of other materials can be supplied to the system pre-formed.

      • I doubt that a 'metallic velcro' interface would seal well enough to be useful in a radiator. As for electron beam welding, it is currently in wide use but typically requires joint-mating-surface-contact to be extremely good; not a feature typically found in plasma cutting. Another topic: Why make the metallic velcro act as the heat fins? Just grow it on the surface you want to cool and shove your standard aluminum extrusion (with corresponding metallic velcro patch) onto it. The patches might allow for

      • Re:Other applications? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by jafuser ( 112236 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @05:43PM (#9163179)
        I was thinking if they could fuse these structures between layers of foil, it could make a lightweight metal sponge of sorts, that would probably be quite strong for it's density.

  • Playtime (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by PixelScuba ( 686633 )
    The kids on the playground are going to be sooo jealous of my new metal velcroe shoes. Just like they were with my pumps!

  • Isn't the point of velcro (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ProudClod ( 752352 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:53PM (#9161809)
    That you can pull it apart?

    If the bond on this stuff is so very very strong, then what advantages does it lend over, say, epoxy?
    • I think they would use it for applications in which you don't want to ever pull it apart. The mention of artificial joints in the article is a good example of that. I wonder if this is safer and/or more reliable than adhesives for use in medicine...

      There are probably other industry applications where you want to join metals and composites also. I imagine that having a permanent strong bond is often more desirable than the ability to take it apart again.

    • Re:Isn't the point of velcro (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Sexy Bern ( 596779 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:58PM (#9161840)
      I imagine repairing/replacing a space shuttle tile becomes a whole lot more realistic.

    • Re:Isn't the point of velcro (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I was quite excited to hear about this since I deal with the construction of devices which are exposed to thermal extremes. Unfortunately I can not elaborate much further. I can however say that when the contact surfaces of a construction are of the same material, thermally induced expansion and contraction are synchronized. It becomes a problem when you stick materials together which expand or contract with temperature at different rates. The stress causes fatigue which can lead to cracks. Think thermal pr

    • The advantage is... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tau Zero ( 75868 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:18PM (#9161968) Journal
      that the attachment of e.g. fibers in a composite to the metal protrusions does not depend on the bonding mechanism of a glue. The glue may age and fail, but the mechanical entanglement will not.
      • I see no mention of rust in the article, wouldn't that make this fail regardless of how entangled it is?
        • It's in the middle of a very tight join between a block of metal and a composite surface; if air and moisture could get to it, then maybe it will rust, if it's a metal susceptible to it.

          You'd probably take care to design the joint so that air and moisture can't get to it.
    • No drying/curing time, for starters. No mess, no poisonous chemicals. No mis-calculating the ratios of the base and catalyst. No jigging.

      Imagine the amount of work that must go into gluing a Boeing 747 together.

      Then imagine how much easier it would be to just velcro it all together.

    • RTFA (Score:3, Informative)

      by GothChip ( 123005 )
      "Dance says his early tests show that these joints will last far longer than current composite-metal joints, which are held together by adhesives."

    • pulling velcro apart (Score:5, Insightful)

      by moviepig.com ( 745183 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:41PM (#9162093)
      Isn't the point of Velcro that you can pull it apart?

      Literally pulling two Velcro blocks apart can be next to impossible. Usually it's a matter of peeling Velcro apart... which should work here too if one of the bondees (the "composite", presumably) is flexible.

  • Very Clever. (Score:3, Funny)

    by tbjw ( 760188 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:56PM (#9161825)
    Since I don't enjoy looking stupid, I'll wait for metal shoelaces, thank you very much.

  • Where is the weakest link, btw? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by toesate ( 652111 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:07PM (#9161898) Journal
    You can have a strong bonded metal velcro, but there could still has a weaker link somewhere along the chain of materials, the ones that are not bonded as tightly as the metal velcro.

    To illustrate, imagine a piece of melted cheese is the velcro for 2 pieces of pastry in a burger, then the weakest link is between the pastry and the bread.

    • What's the difference between bread and pastry?
    • (ignoring the pastry/patty/bread arguments)... Your model seems to conceptualize this process like that of glue or some kind of adhesive bonding. It is not- the 'hairs' are grown from the parent material; they are therefore 'attached' to the parent via the same metallic-lattice bonds that hold the parent together. It's nothing like a slab of melted cheese between a beef (or tofu) patty and a slice of bread. It's more like, um, well, *velcro*! That said, the 'metallic hairs' might tend to fail with some

  • Heatsinks (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mifflesticks ( 473216 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:10PM (#9161914)
    Up to 10x the surface area of the sheet of metal? Sounds like it could make for a great low-profile heatsink. Of course, development costs could be prohibitive, but still...

    • Re:Heatsinks (Score:2, Interesting)

      by rpozz ( 249652 )
      It could possibly make the inside of a water-cooling block more efficent as well. IANAP (I am not a physicist), but wouldn't the increased overall surface area between the coolant and the cooling block lead to a better transfer of heat?

      • Re:Heatsinks (Score:4, Informative)

        by Jennifer E. Elaan ( 463827 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:40PM (#9162087) Homepage
        Assuming the added turbulence of all the protrusions doesn't end up blocking the flow of the coolant entirely (by creating vaccum pockets between them via Bernouli's Principle, or similar effects), then yes, it would make a heat-sink much more efficient.

        The gains would be much more noticable in a system where the bulk of the coolant action comes from a high specific heat with low fluid motion, as in a liquid cooled system. It would increase the efficiency of still air, but could end up decreasing the efficiency of forced air.

      • Re:Heatsinks (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        IANAP (I am not a physicist)

        WDYJTWYMD (Why don't you just type what you mean dumbass?)

    • Re:Heatsinks (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Raynach ( 713366 ) * on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:39PM (#9162078) Homepage
      Did anyone RTFA?

      They could also be used in electronics to produce heat sinks of just about any shape.

      This _would_ make a wicked heat sink. And mentioning that it can be make in any form could really turn heatsinks from structures that jut far out from the chip to something that is conservative on space.

  • airport metal detectors...
  • ... with this product.... or is it a stupid human effort to increase teh use of rustolem?

  • Low-gravity? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cybermace5 ( 446439 ) <g.ryan@macetech.com> on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:31PM (#9162032) Homepage Journal
    They say that they can get structures up to 2mm high and .2mm across, but that's under the influence of gravity. I wonder if this process would work in zero-G, and perhaps work better to create longer structures or different shapes for even stronger bonds?

    This is very good news for composite fiber development. While composite has been exceptionally strong and light, it's difficult to find reliable ways to attach things to it. You basically have to build the fittings into the composite material. "Sticky-metal" fittings might make composites less expensive to use.

  • Sweet tech! (Score:4, Funny)

    by lpangelrob2 ( 721920 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:35PM (#9162051) Journal
    I RTFA, and this is really sweet and promising technology that'll be in use in only a few years. However, not even babelfish could tell me what "gobsmacked" meant.
  • Does whatever a spider can,
    Bonds to lightweight
    Composites
    Or other metal
    Surfaces

    Watch out!
    Here comes the Spidermaaaaaan!
  • I love velcro and its ability to stick two things together, but my problem is usually in getting the velcro to stick to the material on the other side. How will this fabulous metal stuff be stuck to whatever surface it will be on?
  • I didn't read the article (oops) but wouldn't a perfect use for this process be to create electronic components that just stick together without the need for any welding or any other kind of bonding?

  • Gobsmacking? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by stienman ( 51024 ) <adavis@@@ubasics...com> on Saturday May 15, 2004 @02:08PM (#9162248) Homepage Journal
    "When we first realised we could do this we were absolutely gobsmacked," Dance says.

    Brilliant! Those boffins have really done it now. Just a quick electron scan and Bob's your uncle!

    gobsmacked adj. Nothing to do with punching people in the face (although I'm sure that's where it derives from originally), to describe someone as being gobsmacked means they're very surprised or taken aback.
    From here. [english2american.com]

    Although I didn't realize that boffin was somewhat of an insult. That would have been embarrassing, interviewing for a position and referring to your interviewer as a boffin...

    -Adam
    • Completely off-topic I know, but I was actually once referred to as a boffin by a British soldier (in the context of a field test of a military computer system at Larkhill, England.) From the context, it was simply used as a rank, meaning civilian scientist or engineer, as distinct from a military scientist or engineer who would have been in the RE.

      Even then, 20 years ago, the presence of US forces in the next field was making the Brits very nervous. Plus ca change...

  • Corrosion? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rockgorilla ( 714124 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @02:13PM (#9162275)
    What about corrosion? If you increase the surface area so much it'll be very quick to corrode (rust) [howstuffworks.com] and then all the hooks will fall apart.

    Normally you would galvanise or paint it in with something water proof, but surly painting it would cover all the hooks up? I know this isn't an issue for stainless steel but there are plenty of other metals.

    • The composite material would form the seal, right? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by LairBob ( 88057 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @03:26PM (#9162609)
      I think you've got a point if you're just going to leave the surface exposed to normal air once it's been sculpted, but assuming that you weren't careless in storing it till it's used, then once the composite's been bonded to it, that should take care of any rusting problem, right?

      This isn't meant for surfaces that are meant to stay exposed--it's a method to prepare them for some kind of further use, like composite bonding.
    • What about corrosion? If you increase the surface area so much it'll be very quick to corrode (rust) and then all the hooks will fall apart

      That's an excellent point, but I would like to point out this little quote from the article :
      • "Surfi-Sculpt has so far been successfully tested on stainless steel, aluminium and titanium"

      So given that stainless steel doesn't corrode too much and that aluminium and titanium don't rust, I think that the rust problem for the 1st batch of applications might not be a proble

  • I remember reading about this in a science journal back in the 1980's. The root word of "news" is "new", which means "not old". I fail to see how this qualifies.
  • Finally, a company comes out with an idea and technology worth patenting. It's a process that makes something physical, they put a lot of work into making it, it's not something everyone has been doing for years, and it solves a problem in a way that doesn't have a ton of nearly identical alternatives.

    I bet the USPTO sits on the patent application. They wouldn't know innovation if it velcroed itself to their butt.

    Can SOMEONE PLEASE patent the idea of patents, so we can put the USPTO out of business? Ca

  • Right out of Ariadne (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Thagg ( 9904 ) <thadbeier@gmail.com> on Saturday May 15, 2004 @03:21PM (#9162583) Journal
    The New Scientist magazine, back when I was in school in the early 80's, had a column on the last page of each issue, descibing the exploits of the mythical engineer/scientist Daedalus (actually David E H Jones.)

    He had proposed doing exactly this, but with glass, back in one of these columns. It was exactly the same method and result.

    It's not the first time that Daedalus's speculative inventions have turned into reality. A couple of books have been published collecting the best of Daedalus.

    thad

  • So, anybody here think... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cr0sh ( 43134 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @03:25PM (#9162606) Homepage
    ...this stuff will be stronger than JB-Weld?

    JB-Weld, for those of you who don't know, is probably number one in the list of tools for rednecks and others (right next to duct tape, baling wire, and bubblegum) who need to make a repair fairly quickly, and want it to remain in place.

    JB-Weld is strong - very strong. It is a two-part epoxy (comes in slow and quick setting versions) which I have yet to find an equal to.

    My brother-in-law repaired the cracked housing of a blower off the diesel engine on his 10-wheel dump truck (it was alluminum, and he didn't have the equipment to properly weld it) - that repair lasted 5 years before he "retired" the truck (actually, the engine block cracked), probably would have lasted even longer...

    I use it all the time - if it is something that I can't weld but I need to have it stay together (under heat, pressure, vibration, or other high stress especially) - JB Weld is my first choice. I have seen it hold shit together where you would swear it would have to be welded (more or less, it is - just an epoxy "weld") to stay together.

    Now, I know this "metal velcro" is supposed to be an "industrial process" - meaning it will likely never be available for home use in the near future. I also know there are industrial epoxies. I wonder if any of them would beat the pants off of JB-Weld - though I wonder if JB is already an industrial epoxy packaged for "small project" use - I wish I could buy that stuff in larger quantities...

    • Now, I know this "metal velcro" is supposed to be an "industrial process" - meaning it will likely never be available for home use in the near future

      Wow, I just had a vision of pointing my electron gun at two difference pieces of metal and then fusing them together. Now we just need to figure out a way to create the vacuum adnd still keep up the Buck Rogers looking electron gun.

      In the article it did say that it lasts longer than using adhesives:

      Dance says his early tests show that these joints will la

  • Mushrooms vs. hooks (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tgibson ( 131396 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @09:47PM (#9164421) Homepage
    Interesting quality about velcro. If you replace the hooks with mushrooms, the loops grab under the head of the mushrooms and the fastening becomes permanent (i.e. you can't separate the two pieces).

    I'm sure this version velcro is used in many areas. I became aware of it via a friend working in pest control. The nets he was using on buildings to prevent access by pigeons were fastened using this version of velcro.

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