Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Science

Trace Levels of Lead Shown to Lower IQs 78

Posted by michael from the duh dept.
constantnormal writes "This government study explains a lot of things, from the American public's propensity to elect the worst candidates, to the decreasing fraction of students who bother to study the "hard" sciences, to the overwhelming power advertising holds over their apparently simple minds. I think it was all the leaded gasoline burned in this country prior to the 1970s.
Homer Simpson IS the archetypal American -- Thinking and Reasoning is just too doggoned difficult."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Trace Levels of Lead Shown to Lower IQs More

Trace Levels of Lead Shown to Lower IQs

Comments Filter:

  • Huh? (Score:1)

    by s88 ( 255181 )
    Wahtz wit all dem dare beg werdz an stuf?

  • So I guess this means (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Mordant ( 138460 ) on Thursday April 17, 2003 @09:08PM (#5756171)
    that there are trace amounts of lead in areas inhabited by large concentrations of Slashdot posters? ;>

  • Correlation != Causation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ieshan ( 409693 ) <ieshan@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Thursday April 17, 2003 @09:19PM (#5756245) Homepage Journal
    The study says that lead levels are LINKED, slightly, to lower IQs. It says little about causation.

    While the researchers do say on a few occasions, correctly, that lead is a toxin which may be affecting children, it appears as if they correctly realize that their study is correlative and cannot be directly linked, therefore, to causation.

    All studies that deal with correlation cannot be linked to causation because the experimenters do not have direct control over the independant variable, nor can they tell which variable is independant in some cases. While the researchers did control for a variety of things in this experiment (The study followed 172 children in the Rochester, N.Y., area whose blood lead was assessed at 6, 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, and 60 months, and who were tested for IQ at both 3 and 5 years of age. The researchers controlled for many other factors that contribute to a child's intellectual functioning, such as birth weight, mother's intelligence, income, education, and amount of stimulation in the home)... it appears that they did not account for lead exposure by location - the first thing I might suggest.

    For instance, suppose that equal income housing varies greatly in Rochester, NY, and that certain children are growing up in worse or older neighborhoods than others? These worse neighborhoods might have a higher lead exposure than others, which might cause the subsequent decline more than the lead.

    Obviously, the children must be getting lead exposure from somewhere - have they accounted for school district (lead piping or building location of a particular school)?

    It's not that I don't believe in the study, I'd just be hesitant to scream causality.
    • I've found that correlation actually causes causation. Just think about it. Almost every time two things have a causal relationship, there's a correlation between them!
      • Your last proposition is correct, but your first is false. It's a well-known logical error to think that "if A and B come together often then A causes B (or B causes A)". In fact, they could both be caused by C, which no one knows about yet.

        Every time two things have a causal relationship there's a correlation between them. But if two things are correlated that doesn't mean there's a causal relationship between them.

        Daniel

        • C, which no one knows about yet.

          EXACTLY!

          I've been trying to tell people for years that my drinking was not responsible for my ill health.

          People were willing to listen to my explanation until I got to the part where I was hypothesizing that aliens were monitoring us drinkers and teleporting us aboard the ship at night for those operations.

    • causation already established! (Score:5, Informative)

      by js7a ( 579872 ) <`gro.kivob' `ta' `semaj'> on Thursday April 17, 2003 @10:23PM (#5756600) Homepage Journal
      ...their study is correlative and cannot be directly linked, therefore, to causation.

      No, the causation is well established.

      The correlation in question has been known since the early 1960s and confirmed repeatedly in the medical literature. Because of this, lead was removed from the ingredients of paint and gasoline in the 1970s. The causation has been confirmed since at least the publication of this 1994 meta-analysis [nih.gov]:

      ... Lead interferes with GABAergic and dopaminergic neurotransmission. It has been shown to bind to the NMDA receptor and inhibit long-term potentiation in the hippocampal region of the brain. Moreover, experimental studies have demonstrated that blood levels of 10 micrograms/dl interfere with a broad range of cognitive function in primates. Given this support,
      these associations in humans should be considered causal.

      The important results from the new research cited in the article is that the threshold of activity is much lower than had previously been understood.

    • Re:Correlation != Causation (Score:4, Insightful)

      by zenyu ( 248067 ) on Thursday April 17, 2003 @10:40PM (#5756688)
      For instance, suppose that equal income housing varies greatly in Rochester, NY, and that certain children are growing up in worse or older neighborhoods than others? These worse neighborhoods might have a higher lead exposure than others, which might cause the subsequent decline more than the lead.

      This is certainly true, but considering they also found that lead levels currently considered harmful lead to small additional IQ lowering it's pretty good evidence that we haven't found the floor where the exposure begins to have negative effects, further studies are needed at even lower exposure levels to try to find a safe level of lead in the blood. It might be lower than 1 microgram per deciliter which was this study's threshold, once we think we've found the floor we can do multiple studies to try to verify that level. I wouldn't recommend changing the EPA requirement until we really find the right level, but if I was considering a home renovation now I would certainly want to know about this study to try to avoid future cleanup costs if the marginal cost now was low enough.

      I haven't kept up with this but when I last researched this problem the EPA was only requiring water systems to bring 70% of their customers to the current clean standard. If the 70% that are safe by today's standard are actually safe with respect to the actual floor then we should move quickly to make the other 30% safe since an extra 7 IQ points for 30-40% of the population would almost certainly boost tax revenues enough to pay for the conversion (It's probably more than 30% of the children simply because parents on average can't afford the safest housing. I'm also assuming the paint problem will be solved, there are already good notification systems for homeowners and decent ones for renters at least in larger metropolitan areas.)
    • While the researchers do say on a few occasions, correctly, that lead is a toxin which may be affecting children, it appears as if they correctly realize that their study is correlative and cannot be directly linked, therefore, to causation.

      So basically what you're saying is that stupidity causes lead poisoning?

      (sorry, couldn't resist :)
    • Let me know when you pass intro to whatever 'hard' science you've taken this semester; then we can talk Correlation and Causation.

  • Maybe that's because.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by tha_mink ( 518151 ) on Thursday April 17, 2003 @09:21PM (#5756264)
    Maybe, just maybe, only stupid people eat paint.
    • Even funnier is that your .sig is "Ya gotta eat..."

      I've always agreed with that, only stupid people eat paint. I guess the one thing is little kids who don't know any better.
      • I've always agreed with that, only stupid people eat paint. I guess the one thing is little kids who don't know any better.

        I remember in Preschool, I was -THREE-, mind you, and I thought the kids who were eating glue and paint were pretty stupid.
    • Maybe, just maybe, only stupid people eat paint.

      Babies eat everything. It is amazing what they are willing to stick in their mouth. I am surprised natural selection has not curbed this instinct. Perhaps there were less poisons laying around in the old days, although poisonous plants are something that have been around since antiquity.

      I remember once I turned my back on my baby son for a few minutes and the next time I checked up on him, he was munching garden plants as if they were a salad.....well, I

  • Very low levels of lead linked to IQ deficits (Score:4, Funny)

    by WolfWithoutAClause ( 162946 ) on Thursday April 17, 2003 @09:25PM (#5756285) Homepage
    The answer is simple. We need to make sure that everybody gets high levels of lead! They're clearly deficient in lead!
    • The answer is simple. We need to make sure that everybody gets high levels of lead! They're clearly deficient in lead!

      Unfortunately, your premise is flawed and conclusion is too simplistic. First, we have to make clear which kind of IQ deficit is correlated with the lack of lead.

      In the case of internal IQ deficit, we can safely blame lavish government for inappropriate fiscal lead policy, which borrows lead in the open market to finance expensive and non-productive lead-gushing sector. Thus, in the proce
  • I say bah. I grew up in the '70's, I'm a pretty typical smart geek, and guess what? I was exposed to the same lead from pollution (or worse) than the kids today are.
    • I'm a pretty typical smart geek, and guess what? I was exposed to the same lead from pollution (or worse) than the kids today are.
      Ah, but, perhaps if you hadn't been so exposed, you would be even smarter.
      • I'm a pretty typical smart geek, and guess what? I was exposed to the same lead from....Ah, but, perhaps if you hadn't been so exposed, you would be even smarter.

        Hmmm, maybe lead ruins geek's social skills instead.

        I also wonder if I would like OOP if exposed to less lead, breastfed, etc? Yanneverknow
    • I say bah. I grew up in the '70's, I'm a pretty typical smart geek, and guess what? I was exposed to the same lead from pollution (or worse) than the kids today are.

      But where did you grow up? Kids growing up in poor urban areas typically get much more exposure.

      And of course, we might be even smarter geeks if it wasn't for lead exposure.

  • I travel to a large government laboratory on Long Island a few times a year to do experiments. Because of some problems in the past of things leaking into the ground water ALL water is tested quite extensively on a regular basis.

    Turns out that because the plumbing on site is quite old, the copper fittings are starting to 'leak' lead. Lead is a component of copper.

    Now all the dorm sinks have a sign that says:
    If the water has not been run for 6 hours or more it is recommended that you run cold water for 2
    • BTW, I should clarify:

      The pipes are not lead. The problem really is from the copper.
      • Is it just me, or am I missing the chemical reaction that turns the element Copper into lead? Something to do with the solder used in the joints, yes. The Copper pipes themselves, no.
        • Oops. You're right.

          I said copper twice, when I meant to say brass. I was even thinking the word brass, so I don't know where copper came from; having a bit of an attention deficit day I guess.

          Lead is added to the brass to make it easier to machine. The brass fittings are the problem.

          Again, sorry for the confusion.
          • I said copper twice, when I meant to say brass. I was even thinking the word brass, so I don't know where copper came from; having a bit of an attention deficit day I guess.

            Or too much exposure to lead.

    • They probably just noticed that 30 seconds wasn't long enough to flush the pipes from the street to the faucet.

  • The Effect of Lead on Democracies (Score:3, Funny)

    by Alethes ( 533985 ) on Thursday April 17, 2003 @10:11PM (#5756544)
    from the American public's propensity to elect the worst candidates

    Even worse, they even re-elect them [whitehouse.gov]!

  • Bell Curve (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Henry V .009 ( 518000 )
    7 points down, that's about half the IQ difference between Blacks and Whites (avg. 85 and 100 respectively). It's interesting how an IQ test can be meaningless and racist, but still reflect minute quantities of harmful substances in the bloodstream. Reminds me of all those racist and sexist SAT math exams. I have yet to find a single objectionable math question, but the scores prove that it must be so...

    Yes, yes, this will draw flames. I think some people might like to have a honest discussion about t

    • Re:Bell Curve (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Rip!ey ( 599235 )
      ... that's about half the IQ difference between Blacks and Whites (avg. 85 and 100 respectively).

      I'm sorry, but given your asserted (and not backed up by reference) averages of 85 and 100, you cannot possibly arrive at an average of 100 for the entire population, as is required?

      It's interesting how an IQ test can be meaningless and racist ...

      IQ tests are never racist. Only people are.

      • Re:Bell Curve (Score:3, Informative)

        by Henry V .009 ( 518000 )
        One of the most common errors made when discussing this sort of thing is to imagine that there are only two races, the 'White' race, and the 'Black' race. It is particularly common amoung white educated liberals, the supposed 'tolerant class', for some reason. And you -- no doubt innocently -- assume that even if there were other races, they couldn't score higher than whites. That's an interesting subconcious expresion on your part, but we don't really need to discuss it. The Asian average is around 15
        • The Asian average is around 15 points higher than the White average.

          Please provide references. I think you pulled that one out of someplace dark and damp.

    • What a world (Score:3, Insightful)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 )
      What a world we live in. People call the IQ tests racist because the black and white averages are different? They didn't bother to complain about the IQ test's as compared to some useful metric (that it doesn't predict success in school, or that it doesn't predict average income)?

      I mean, the need to be a victim is *wildly* out of control. Yes, it's not impossible that the IQ tests were designed to produce lower scores for blacks. It's also quite possible that the average black score simply happens to b

  • Wow. Nice Header (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Syncdata ( 596941 ) on Thursday April 17, 2003 @10:16PM (#5756565) Journal
    This header is editorialism at it's worst. I'm sure constant doesn't have any axe to grind at all, and that this incindiery post is unintentional in every way, but nothing says "put me on your foes list" like a header that
    #1:Insults an entire Continent,
    #2:Insults said continents ability to comprehend politics/science, and
    #3:Emphatically states that said continents inahbitants are unable to refuse the siren song of Madison avenue.
    Ordinarily, I try to avoid vulgarity, trolling, and plain being offtopic, but F@!$ you too Constantnormal [slashdot.org]
    And Michael, I'm not one of these cats that criticises you all the time, but damn. In this case, you might have wanted to think this one over before posting.
    • Yeah, you're correct, I'm more than a little bitter about my perception of the onslaught of stupidity in MY COUNTRY. Sorry if it offended you.

      But let's look at this just a bit further and see if there isn't something to it.

      One point -- please don't confuse the United States with Canada and Mexico. Canada seems to do quite well when compared to us on a per capita basis, and Mexico is still growing out of being a third-world nation, and makes for a not really meaningful comparison to the US.

      Your #1 gripe

      • One point -- please don't confuse the United States with Canada and Mexico.
        You referred to the U.S. as America. America is a continent. There are several governments upon this continent, one of which is the United States of America. My phrasing was quite precise.
        As to your second complaint, what does your problem with current events in iraq have to do with lead poisoning? State your political views in a comment or article about politics. Would you write a header merging your displeasure with Iraq in
        • "what does your problem with current events in Iraq have to do with lead poisoning"

          I thought he made that link very clear. Basically his reasoning was that the lead poisoning must have corroded peoples IQ to the point where they can't seem to manage the war correctly. If it wasn't the lead, then what else was it that caused the apparent lack of IQ.

          "As far as your typical rant against capitalism and our suckering for Advertising, I don't know what you're talking about pal. I don't own a dell, and I don't
      • BTW, where are the forms of entertainment (TV, cable, movies) that show a thinking protagonist solving complex problems? All I see is "reality" TV.

        JOHN DOE!! Ha!

        (for those that don't know, the tv show "John Doe" is about an amnesiac who woke up one day and pretty much knows everything except who he is. It's a pretty good show; he uses his massive intellect to help the police solve crimes, while trying to discover who he is. Ok, my summary does the show no justice whatsoever, but at least I enjoy watching
      • The fact remains that you are either an idiot or a troll.

        Equating lead pipes with foreign policy makes absolutely no sense.

        There is a case to be made that the US is on the decline. The export of all non-food industry, the piss-poor quality of education are examples of alarming issues that nobody is addressing.

        If you want to write about that, go ahead. But don't hide your agenda in a misleading article about plumbing.

      • 80% of all the scientific articles in the WORLD are published by people either living in the U.S or studying here.

        The U.S has the most universities in the world and the most prestigious/highest quality ones.

        And..here's a causation vs. correlation difference for you...to illustrate the point.

        People are not stupid if they disagree with you. I find that most protesters/ranters fail to see this.
      • Except there's one problem with your argument. Leaded gas has only recently, or just this year been fazed out for use in many European countries. France and the UK were supposed to have done it in 2000, and Italy is only slated to do it this year. If leaded gas makes people stupid, then you should look toward Europe for the largest effect.

        Lead may have some effect, I don't dispute that. Your error is trying to make this into some sort of "this is why Americans are stupid" argument. I don't think anyon
  • A small study on 172 people, somewhat exaggerated by the government article, turned into sensationistic, anti-american crap by constantnormal, and posted by Michael for some unknown reason.

    This study is on 172 children. It's a tiny study. Repeat after me: Correlation does not mean causuation. This does not take into account a myriad of socioeconomic factors.

    Where do you usually have more lead plumbing? In older neighborhoods. Who lives in older neighborhoods quite often?

    Lower income people!

    Without the e
    • Reminds me of the debate in highschool where I made a graph and used it to win. We then had to switch and debate the other side and my team one that too using the same graph. I had messed with the scales and used a low amount of data points though and they didn't realize it because it looked "right".

  • And 125 grains of lead in the head... (Score:4, Funny)

    by vudufixit ( 581911 ) on Thursday April 17, 2003 @11:16PM (#5756886)
    Will reduce your IQ to zero. Quickly.
  • to the decreasing fraction of students who bother to study the "hard" sciences

    As someone who choose not to study the "hard" sciences because I thought they were easy and boring (no offense inteded to those who do, however) I am a little annoyed at the implication that social science is somehow better suited to stupid people.

    If you bothered to study "soft" sciences you'd realize the degree of depth of understanding possible is far greater than is capable in science. The most interesting and intelligent p
    • This could be your personal bias as to what is interesting coming into play. I'm willing to bet it is (there's also the issue that R and PS have a huge focus on society, thereby making their researchers more broadly informed. The hard sciences are the opposite.).

  • Urban kids (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Muhammar ( 659468 )
    Urban kids will have higher lead levels and poorer schools - it may have to do more with economy of urban areas and property taxes/school financing than with lead poisonong. Rochester brighter kids live in suburbs, have affluen/more educated - motivated parents etc. Incidentaly, there is less lead in suburbs.

    Europe is stil using leaded gasoline as frequently as unleaded - the catalysts did not realy caught on (it was poisoning the exhaust catalysts that was decisive in conversion from leaded to unleaded ga
  • my parent's had me drink Amoco Silver as a child. Super clean means super smart!
  • If we declare it a Vegetable then it isn't a problem except for those whiny liberals. Worked for ketchup didn't it?

    Oh wait, whiny liberals that's me. I wonder where we can get organically grown Lead.

  • I don't know if it happened, but France and the UK were slated to eliminate leaded gasoline as recently as 2000. Italy is supposed to eliminate lead in gasoline in 2003. If you want to point to lead in gasoline making people stupid you should look toward Europe before the US.

    No, I don't think this is the case. But I'm a little tired of the US always taking flak for being behind the times on everything, when the reality is we're quite a bit ahead on many issues. As an example, The US is ahead of many Eur
  • Paul: You eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid?
    Tommy: Ha ha ha, why?

  • Yeah, Americans are dumb. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by spike hay ( 534165 ) <`ku.em.etaloiv' `ta' `eci_ulb'> on Friday April 18, 2003 @01:01PM (#5760155) Homepage
    We don't contribute anything to science and technology. Well, not much. It's piddling. Just stuff the transistor, the microchip, the tv, the computer, the space shuttle, the Apollo program, the affordable car, the tech behind the internet, stealth aircraft, lasers, probes to the outer solar system, UNIX, AC, the Hubble telescope, the lightbulb, the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, nuclear power, nuclear bombs, and a few other worthless little dodads.

    Yeah, we suck.

    Of course, we are the only ones in the world who have low IQs like this. No other country was ever stupid enough to use leaded gasoline prior to the 1970's or lead plumbing. Only we are that dumb.

Slashdot Top Deals

Anyone can make an omelet with eggs. The trick is to make one with none.

Close