cr0sh asks:
"I was recently looking into the costs and availabilty associated with small, hydrogen fuel cells (results: they are still expensive), when I came across this site about the Hydrogen-Boost [Warning: Pop-ups]. Looking at this site, it seemed like just another in the long line of scamming 'get more mileage/power' engine products out there, but it intrigued me enough to continue looking into it. I eventually came upon another site on
hydrogen experiments. A little more searching revealed this one about constructing your own Hydro-Boost device, which goes into detail about how you would build such a system. None of these sites answered the big questions, however: 'does it work?', and 'if so, how well?'. I also wanted something a little more authoritative. So, back to digging...which came up with this paper from OSTI [PDF]. The very first line of the abstract of this paper reads 'It is well known that hydrogen addition to spark-ignited (SI) engines can reduce exhaust emissions and increase efficiency.' This paper seems to advance the notion that such a system like the 'Hydrogen Boost' system may actually work. Does Slashdot think such a system would work? If so, how it could be improved, especially given today's rapidly rising gasoline prices, here in America?"
"On the experiments site, via the link to 'Hydrogen Experiments Part 2', the author references the first site. He ultimately decides to 'home-brew' his own system instead, and gives enough detail for anybody to do so. I was hoping the author had more details on the effects caused by dumping hydrogen into his engine, but that doesn't appear to be.
A notable observation on the Hydro Boost Device is that instead of using a stainless steel mesh as the other guy uses (which would seem to be a superior material to use, though difficult to find), this design uses galvanized steel bolts for the electrodes, making it something that can be built from materials found at a local building materials warehouse."
Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:5, Informative)
My civic hybrid gets 45-47 MPG, is quiet as hell, and was fairly cheap. GM and Ford both have alternative fuel vehicle programs, but until I can go down to the local dealer and drive home with a hydrogen F-150, I'll be in a hybrid.
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:5, Informative)
I've had a civic hybrid for almost a year now. Overall, it's averaging 41 mpg. Not incredible, but I live in a hilly, HOT area. A/C drags down the fuel effeciency considerably. I pull about 45 mpg without A/C. On long trips over relativley flat roads, I get about 47 mpg.
And, just to contradict myself, I also own a 2000 Toyota Celica That get 28-30mpg in the summer (with A/C) and has gotten as high as 35-38 mpg on long trips.
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
One of the honda salesman says he sold a bunch of Civics to a business for a commuting fleet, the highway performance was the sell over the Prius. Take what you will from that statement from a salesman, but it seems to be true.
Sacrifice Power.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sacrifice Power.... (Score:3, Informative)
41mpg from a hybrid - I get that from my petrol (Score:2)
This thing is great, will happly cruise @ 70mph on a motorway, and around town / my usual short journeys I get 40mpg, on a long run it can go as high as 45mpg.
The key is that it only have an 800cc 3 cylinder engine, it's not the fastest car around but has all the toys such as A/C power steering etc. and is VERY easy to park.
Best thing is that second hand you can pick a 2 year old one up for
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:5, Informative)
The Prius was pretty small, and would have been a step down from our existing car (another civic). Combined with the price, the civic was a better car.
Note that I own both a Toyota and a Honda, so I wasn't leaning towards the Honda simply from customer loyalty. In the end, the size of the car and the price were the deciding factors. The Prius had a markup, and the Civic didn't, so the civic was about 2k less than the prius.
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:3, Informative)
Why oh why do they have the shifter next to the steering wheel blocking site to the center console?
Speedometer is right underneath the windshield in the middle. Weird.
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:3, Funny)
This story isn't about fuel cells. It is about using Hydrogen, which is very combustible to enhance your engine's efficiency. Somehow you put hydrogen into your engine, it ignites, and thus you can use less fuel to get the same power. aka a H
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
Creating a gas/fuel cell hybrid if you will. But most of my original comment still remains: unless I can buy it at a dealer, I probably won't void my warrant by "modding" it.
In a geeky slashdot way, I can see the allure in modding up an engine with fuel cells. In a practical way, if you want better gas mileage, you're better off with the hybrid. Or maybe just a normal "lite" car.. ditch the SU
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
A bigger show stopper is likely to be "where do I refuel it?"
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:3, Insightful)
You are simply replacing some of the hydrocarbons in the fuel supply with hydrogen.
This is talking about making normal cars better.
At the expense of a far more complicated fuel system. Since one fuel is a liquid the other is a gas. So you can't simply pre mix fuel in a storage tank. A
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
Why would you drive a Hydrogen F-150 over your Honda Civic? The F-150 was built for work, often on conditions that require a little off-road. Great for light construction or farm work. The Handeling cannot be made as good as a car, (assuming the car wasn't baddly designed, a '30's car is likely worse than today's F-150 for example) and because it is designed to haul a load it has to use more energy to move. (Real output power, input power can be controlled to some extent)
Mind you there are many goo
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
But as someone who wants to help stop pollution, stop wasting gasoline, and such... I had to trade in my F-150 lightning for the hybrid. An alternative fuel F-150 would probably still be pretty wasteful, but hey... if it was clean / cheap waste, I'd be up for it!
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids (Score:2)
I drive a 1995 Mercury Tracer and I get between 30 and 35 miles per gallon. 10 more miles per gallon for a "modern" hybrid car seems utterly unimpressive. Basically as long as you're not driving some god awful SUV you should get about the same. My friend's 2000 VW Jetta gets almost 40 MPG.
Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out DIESEL (Score:2)
Well (Score:4, Informative)
If you're going to sell a product, at least make it look semi-professional.
Re:Well (Score:3, Funny)
If only the site could be as sensible as timecube.com [timecube.com]
Re:Well (Score:2)
Re:Well (Score:2)
Re:Well (Score:3, Informative)
Hydrogen Boost Is Useless (Score:3, Informative)
I know this for a fact, because I was hired to perform research for a few months on the topic. We examined several different systems for reducing pollution and increasing gas mileage.
The point of hydrogen boost is to add a little hydrogen to the engine as a catalyst , not as fuel. Since using if for fuel would require as much energy to generate the hydrogen as to burn it.
After running tests with it, we found if anything Hydrogen-boost caused ~10% drop in mileage and did not affect pollution output (
Patriotism be damned (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Patriotism be damned (Score:2)
Re:Patriotism be damned (Score:2, Funny)
What about Ballard, et al? (Score:3, Insightful)
But a website says you can build a unit yourself? Well, gawrsh Cletus, iff'n that doesn't give you some good idears, I dunno what will.
Re:What about Ballard, et al? (Score:3, Informative)
Metho-Boost (Score:5, Funny)
Not likely (Score:2, Interesting)
Probably not going to happen anytime soon. Automotive companies seem pretty reluctant to do anything but make petrol engines. GE just canned it entire Electric Car program after saying it would change the way the world looks at cars (or something similar).
The problem is that research into alternate fuel techs is very expensive, and automotive companies j
Re:Not likely (Score:2)
I was much obliged when I went to the Honda dealer and made a fair deal.
Re:Not likely (Score:2)
Re:Not likely (Score:2, Insightful)
So, if you are here in the United States, what you think
Re:Not likely (Score:2)
Um, no - the primary means of getting hydrogen is through a process known as catalytic steam cracking. I don't know the exact process, but it is done at refineries, where steam and petroleum vapor are mixed and heated in some fashion to ultra-high temperatures to break the H2 bonds in the petroleum. It is a pretty efficient, if still "dirty" method of H2 extractio
Re:Not likely (Score:2)
Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:2)
C//
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:2)
Not necessarily. What a turbocharger does is pump more fuel/air mixture into the combustion changer. It's entirely plausible that the combusition is less efficient than a naturally aspirated vehicle. Not to mention the energy required to run the pump (though a naturally aspirated engine of similar power would have larger moving masses, more con
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:2)
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:2)
Re:Bzzt, wrong. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:2)
It's obvious you don't know what you're talking about, otherwise you would've logged in. But whatever, I'll refute your points anyway so nobody else says the same things.
An economy car, such as the Geo Metro, gets up to 55 MPG. That's more than twice as efficient as your G
Re:Forget efficiency go with NOS (Score:2)
Imagine the possibilities? Yes. Absolutely... Think instant qualification for a Darwin Award. When thinking of combining a high potential oxidizer with a "high heat of oxidation" fuel one should consider the results of the experiments of lighting charcoal with LOX (Liquid Oxygen).
Nitrous Oxide, unlike LOX, is perfectly safe at STP. It's not flammable, not explosive, other than the pressurized tank. Thousands of people use nitrous oxide systems every day, it's a cheap, easily removable, easily installed w
Hydro boost from water vapor? (Score:2, Interesting)
I also heard cars get a little horsepower boost from intake of highly humidified air?
Experts, please confirm or deny.
Re:Hydro boost from water vapor? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Hydro boost from water vapor? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Hydro boost from water vapor? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Hydro boost from water vapor? (Score:2)
It is unlikely, at least for cars. I assume you mean pure (if ionized) hydrogen that is not combined with oxygen. It is extremely rare for water to ionize on its own, and breaking the bond forcibly requires very large amounts of energy per atom. If you look at chemical reactions (esp. combustion) you see water is a common product because of its high bond energy. Also consider that unfiltered outdo
Why fuel cells are expensive. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why fuel cells are expensive. (Score:2)
The worry I have about batteries is my experience with laptop, cordless, and cell phone batteries: after one year you lost 50-100% of the battery's capacity...
Probably not a good idea (Score:5, Informative)
However, there may be some subtle advantages in adding gaseous hydrogen and oxygen to the fuel mixture. I doubt they would compensate for the efficiencies in the first paragraph.
You should ignore this post, the oil companies are paying me $$$ to suppress these crazy inventions.
Re:Probably not a good idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Probably not a good idea (Score:2)
Possibly he's getting advantages from accidental water injection and the fact that he's trying to electrolyze it is a red herring.
(I remember years ago reading a review of a water injection device. The testers found real measurable gains in engine power and efficiency.
Those gains remained once they removed the device and put
FYI... (Score:2)
Small amounts of Methane can produce similar results. Sadly, there are a few show-stopping engineering hurdles left concerning the carburetor/cows-ass interface.
Honest! It said so on a web site I saw.
Propane & Diesel Engines (Score:2, Informative)
A friend of the family uses it on a large tandem axel farm truck and claims it almost doubles his highway milage.
stoicheometric combustion (Score:2)
I'm just curious - how is this technique achieving accurate control of the air/fuel mixture ratio? Can oxygen sensors still accurately determine if the burn is/was lean/rich ?
Re:stoicheometric combustion (Score:2)
another story of junk that might work (Score:5, Interesting)
The idea basically involved mixing water and gasoline before feeding it into the engine. A surfactant was used to allow the two to misch, so the engine was never fed pure water. The experimenter also bolted a hunk of platinum to the top of the cylinder, saying the platinum would be a catalyst and would crack the water into hydrogen and oxygen, producing more energy.
Pretty funny, huh?
Well, maybe not. I sent him a letter with an alternative theory; that the added water absorbed heat and evaporated, trading heat that would otherwise be wasted for additional pressure inside the cylinder. I also postulated that the platinum chunk wasn't taking an active part in the situation, but was instead using up space inside the cylinder and increasing the compression ratio; and that a ratio that would lead to pre-detonation in a pure gasoline engine might not do so in a system that ran at lower temperatures, thanks to the water's cooling effect. I suggested running a few experiments to find out, by measuring operating temperatures with and without the water, and by bolting in a hunk of steel in place of the platinum and seeing if it made a difference. I also recommended he try a dual injection system, one for fuel and one for water, rather than try and mix them.
I did get an email message back from the page's maintainer, but I've no idea if the experimenter ever got the message. Oh well.
Re:another story of junk that might work (Score:2)
This is essentially what higher octane fuels at gas stations do except instead of water they use other additives.
Re:another story of junk that might work (Score:3, Interesting)
Using water to boost engine power has been a well-known trick of racers for a long, long time. It is no secret that very small amounts of water vaporized into the air/fuel mixture will increase horsepower. I have heard anecdoctal tales dating back to the 60's and earlier of home-brew systems for drag race cars, very similar to some current strap-on NO2 injection systems, which allowed the driver to apply short controlled bursts of water mist into the intake manifold.
The primary benefits are in lowering i
Re:another story of junk that might work (Score:2)
Re:another story of junk that might work (Score:2)
Water inject is a known way to improve performance and power. However it only works after the engine is warm, and only when you get the right amount. (More than about 5% water is worse than none at all).
Combine water's tendency to freeze in winter, with the need to keep another consumable toped off, with a couple other disadvantages that I forget now, and water injection is not worth it.
Some gas stations (used to?) mix a little water in with their gas, because they know that it is a cheap way to increas
Re:another story of junk that might work (Score:2)
Has been done on fuel injected cars (Score:3, Informative)
Note that some of the older fuel injection designs, instead of having multiport injection (one injector/cylinder), they used throttle body injection. (One injector at the throttle body). You could just add a water injector at the throttle body. One guy did it on his Dodge Shadow (http://www.karlsnet.com/mopar/) - There's a lot of info not on that page, he was an acti
Re:another story of junk that might work (Score:2)
Expensive? =/ (Score:2)
I thought it was dirt cheap there!
You should try paying around $3.7/gallon, like we do in sweden...
And this has nothing to do with the US war threats. It's been like this for years...
Once the US invasion of Iraq is underway, the price'll probably skyrocket.
Luckily, I drive a diesel. That's "only" about $3.2/gallon. =)
Well, it is getting more expensive for America... (Score:2)
Re:Well, it is getting more expensive for America. (Score:2)
And any such innovation would lower my gas bill too. =)
Hydrogen = best stuff to burn. (Score:2)
Re:Hydrogen = best stuff to burn. (Score:2)
Hydro Boost? (Score:2)
The theory does sound interesting though. I'm curious myself if it would work.
After reading his text, I have to wonder about the author though. He says he has a background in chemestry (at least teaching it in hgih school), but then f
Re:Hydro Boost? (Score:2)
Pretty much what I was thinking - it is an interesting "weekend" experiment, that doesn't cost much in materials or time - if it seemed to work, great (and I would be doing what you suggest, to get a better idea of mpg) - if not, then I would pull it off, and call it a failed (but interesting) experiment (actually, I would probably play around with filling balloons and such using it, maybe experimenting with other hydrogen systems
Re:Hydro Boost? (Score:2)
Hey Bob, watch what happens when I put a match to this balloon!
hehe
Well (Score:2)
However this seems like it would be easy to verify in a lab setting. Combine vaporized gasoline and hyrdogen gas under the pressures experienced in an average engine, and test how well it burns compared to normal gasoline.
Re:Well (Score:2)
Actually tried this in the '70s (Score:2)
Alternative fuels are very sexy, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Changing from 12V to 42V will be a lot easier than moving from gasoline to something else. Look what you get for going to 42V:
No. (Score:3, Informative)
This "hydrogen boosting" is just adding a different fuel to the mix. Of course the "mileage" will increase because you are getting more power from the other fuel. The other fuel is probably more expensive than gasoline, so why bother? Not only that, but you are "misfueling" your vehicle, so unless you really know what you're doing it could impact the performance and/or lifetime of the engine and it certainly voids your warranty.
More fuel = better emissions?!? (Score:2, Insightful)
Dangerous nonsense (Score:3, Informative)
First, an acid filled generator will produce acid spray in the hydrogen. Which gets into the engine...which is made of aluminum and iron. Instant damaging corrosion time.
If you use the alternative electrolyte, sodium hydroxide, that just dissolves the piston.
Second, it is possible that (assuming the article isn't a complete troll) the engine used was fouled up and the acid mist actually cleaned up the plugs a bit. Cleaning plugs on old dirty engines usually increases gas mileage for a short while till the thing starts poorly and fouls up again.
I don't know why chemistry teachers bother, honestly. Conservation of energy, thermal changes in reactions, then their little charges grow up and forget the lot, and start believing in fairy dust.
For the sake of Sagan (Score:2)
If somebody is saying that cracking hydrogen will increase the mileage on your car, they're full of crack. The only way that could occur would be if hydrogen was to act as a catalyst increasing efficiency of the burn in your car (You can't get more energy from a chemical reaction then you get from it in reverse. Burning oxygen with h
And you can get more power by spraying water (Score:2)
[1] Note, this happens naturally on cold and misty mornings.
Mod parent as "Offtopic" (Score:2)
If you want to comment about the war then for goodness sake do it in the story that's about the war, not in a story about hydrogen. Sheesh!
Re:ATTN those posting about fuel cells: (Score:5, Informative)
The person to go looking for on this one is Roger Billings; he's currently with the International Academy of Science [science.edu] (I drive by there every morning on my way to work). He was driving hydrogen-powered ICE vehicles back in the '70's.
He ran into two problems with running an engine on Hydrogen.
He got hydrogen engines down to such an artform that he modified a Volkswagen Beetle ('72, IIRC) to run on the stuff for a college competition (he was an undergrad at the time), and the emissions coming out of the tailpipe were actually CLEANER than the air going into the intake. Basically, any Carbon Monoxide or unburned Hydrocarbons (common vehicle pollutants) which made it into the intake were finished off in the process, and the hydrogen fuel didn't produce any such emissions (water vapor).
I'd be wary about adding hydrogen to a gasoline engine to help the economy. You'd need a significant amount of hydrogen to make any real difference, and hydrogen storage these days is either:
Sorry guys, but this sounds like B.S.
Re:ATTN those posting about fuel cells: (Score:3, Interesting)
You are probably right about the amount needed for increasing the efficiency - still, it would be a fun thing to play with
Re:LPNG and LPG (Score:4, Informative)
A friend of mine bought a secondhand fedex van that was propane based. It got about the same mileage for the dollar at the time he bought it.
The problem with propane is it doesnt burn all that cleanly, it leaves residues in the engine which over time dramatically affect its performance (horsepower).
My friends van was slow and noisy with no pickup on the roads. And the propane powered police cruisers are routinely replaced.
I was watching a show on TLC about gasoline and refineries and whatnot. As far as burning hydrocarbons goes, gasoline is pretty much as good as it gets.
Re:LPNG and LPG (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Dont worry about it (Score:2)
More likely it'll stay expensive while the profits get diverted from friends of Jacque to friends of George.
Yeah... (Score:2, Interesting)
It is predicted that the coming war is going to drive the price up at least $5 a barrel, probably much more, making it higher than it has ever been. Of course, this cost could be absorbed in the United States if the US starts using its own oil reserves. Still, the oil cartel has decided to jack the price up at least 100% around the year 2010 (if not sooner).
We need those "Mr. Fusion" engines they had in Ba
Re:Yeah... (Score:2)
Re:Yeah... (Score:2)
Oil companies know this. They also know that having control of the supply when it "hits bottom" is going to
Re:If they did it once, they can do it again... (Score:2)